to refret or not

[krazyderek]

So i have a neck radius of 10", the nut is 10"r too.. but the bridge is 15", i have a fairly new set of tall frets on the fingerboard, so i was just going to use my straight edge to compound the frets from 10" at the nut to 15" at the 24th fret cause the middle strings buzz a little up the neck (solo area), or should i take off half/all the frets and resand the fingerboard with the compound radius then refret?

which would you do?

ps, i don't really wana spew the money for shims for the bridge

[daveq]

Doing a compound radius this way sounds like it could be very challenging.

How much are the shims? I think AllParts has them for $4.50. You can also make your own shims fairly easily. I have been told that this is the way some guitar shops have done it over the years (by using feeler guages for material).

I personally don't like doing any more fret work than can be avoided but if it's something that you would consider fun, go for it. Let us know how it comes out.

[lovekraft]

Something to consider - if you adjust the bridge radius, once it's right, you're done, but if you redress the frets, you've got 24 chances to screw something up! I think I'd go for the bridge mod.

[krazyderek]

dang it, i hate being wrong but i always did learn better by trial and error,

i took the guitar apart to try out some different emg's and figured since i had the strings off i'd try out my idea on compounding the frets, but after comparing 10" ro 16" on the board and seeing how much i would have to take off the center of the fret then level the rest of the borad like that i said aww screw it, i'll measure out some shims tomorow or sift thru allparts in a minute, i guess the idea of making another compound radius neck was just kinda intising, i might try it with another fingerboard and put it on there later, the main reason i don't like allparts is they're site is horrible, for example the shims i needed where on page 14 in the bridge section... just a little anoying that's all....... and i'm lazy

[daveq]

I agree with your comments about the AllPars site. The only thing that could make it worse is if they left out the pics. At first, I assumed that they were under construction but it looks like they just don't care.

I ordered some more shims almost a week ago and still haven't recv'd them yet. I think the part # is BP2214-001 ($4.50). Good luck. I think I may grab on of my feeler guages and hack it up if they don't show up soon.

[jbkim]

I ordered some more shims almost a week ago and still haven't recv'd them yet. I think the part # is BP2214-001 ($4.50). Good luck. I think I may grab on of my feeler guages and hack it up if they don't show up soon.

For anyone who wants to calculate the sizes of the shims from feeler guages... I checked the Dr. Math forum particularly the section for circle for any helpful formulas. This diagram seems to apply to this situation:

with the formula: d = sqrt(4r^2-c^2)/2 being the most salient. Calculate your values for d (the shims) with r being either your starting or ending radius and c being the distances between 3rd/4th, 2nd/5th and 1st/6th strings.

It'd probably be easy enough to "trial and error" the correct feeler guage sizes but for those who want some mathematical rigor, the above should be a good starting point.

[jbkim]

Calculate your values for d (the shims)...

Hmm... I should clarify that the shim values would be calculated from the differences in d values derived from the starting and ending r values. Clear as mud, eh?

[krazyderek]

or you could draw part of a 10"r circle and overlap a 16(15 or 14)"r circle thta intersects at 2 points, the distance apart should equal the string spread on the bridge, then just divide that space by 5, and measure the gab between the 2 circles at the 4 marks you just made and the 2 ends will obviously stay the same........ cause i don't understand that math hooie you just posted.

[jbkim]

or you could draw part of a 10"r circle and overlap a 16(15 or 14)"r circle thta intersects at 2 points, the distance apart should equal the string spread on the bridge, then just divide that space by 5, and measure the gab between the 2 circles at the 4 marks you just made and the 2 ends will obviously stay the same........ cause i don't understand that math hooie you just posted.

Isn't that what I just said? Um, actually, since you're dealing with two different curves and not a linear measure, it wouldn't be a straight proportion as you suggest. Plus, the distances you'd be dealing with will be on the order of 0.010" which'll be difficult to measure... but like I said in my original post, it might be just "easier" to "trial and error" it. I just posted the math for those who might be interested.

[krazyderek]

well i just don't understand your explination of the formula..... the only thing i understand there is r

[Scott Rosenberger]

I use cutup Beer cans for shims on my personal guitars

[jbkim]

well i just don't understand your explination of the formula..... the only thing i understand there is r

Hmm... ok, sorry. I suppose I can put together a web CGI form that calculates the shim sizes, given a starting radius and ending radius, if there is enough interest (post here if anyone is.) Give me a few days to do it... I have a love/hate relationship with programming .

[jbkim]

I use cutup Beer cans for shims on my personal guitars 

Heh, that's cool! But I wonder how differing metals (steel - floyd vs. aluminum can) will have dielectric (is that the correct term?) effect, i.e., corrosion. Would this be a concern?

[jbkim]

well i just don't understand your explination of the formula..... the only thing i understand there is r

Well, I worked out the math as a prelude to figuring out the code. Hope it makes some sense to you :

The distance between 1st and 6th strings on my floyd is

2 1/8" (2.125".)  Numbers have been rounded to nearest 0.0001"


  6    5    4    3    2    1

            <-c3->

       <------c2------>

  <-----------c1----------->


let c1 = 2.1250"             # distance between 1st and 6th

let c2 = (3/5)* c1 = 1.2750" # distance between 2nd and 5th

let c3 = (1/5)* c1 = 0.4250" # distance between 3rd and 4th


let r0 = 15"                 # starting radius

let r1 = 10"                 # ending radius


function calculate_height_d (r, c) {

  # takes radius and string distance as args: r and c

  d = sqrt(4*(r*r) - (c*c))/2

  return d

}


# let d10, d20, d30 = the calculated distance using c1, c2, c3

#                     with the formula: d = sqrt(4*r*r - c*c)/2

#                     and r0.

let d10 = calculate_height_d (r0, c1)

let d20 = calculate_height_d (r0, c2)

let d30 = calculate_height_d (r0, c3)


d10 = 14.9623"

d20 = 14.9864"

d30 = 14.9985"


# let d11, d21, d31 = the calculated distance using c1, c2, c3

#                     with the formula: d = sqrt(4*r*r - c*c)/2

#                     and r1.

let d11 = calculate_height_d (r1, c1)

let d21 = calculate_height_d (r1, c2)

let d31 = calculate_height_d (r1, c3)


d11 = 9.9434"

d21 = 9.9797"

d31 = 9.9977"


Now here's where it gets confusing :-).


Since in this case, we're going from a radius of 15 to 10, the 1st/6th

strings will be untouched, with shims needed for the 2nd/5th and

3rd/4th strings.  If we went from a radius of 10 to 15, the 3rd/4th

would stay the same and the others would need to be shimmed.


let d20_diff = d20 - d10

let d30_diff = d30 - d10


d20_diff = 0.0241"

d30_diff = 0.0362"


let d21_diff = d21 - d11

let d31_diff = d31 - d11


d21_diff = 0.0363"

d31_diff = 0.0543"


let shim_for_3rd_4th_strings = d31_diff - d30_diff

let shim_for_2nd_5th_strings = d21_diff - d20_diff


shim_for_3rd_4th_strings = 0.0181"

shim_for_2nd_5th_strings = 0.0122"

so basically, you'll need two shims of about 0.0181" for your 3rd and 4th strings and two of about 0.0122" for your 2nd and 5th strings to change it from the 15" radius to 10" radius. Of course, as I said several times before, you could have "trial and error"-ed it, but math is fun, right? If anyone sees any errors above, please post any corrections.

[Jehle]

I agree with your comments about the AllPars site. The only thing that could make it worse is if they left out the pics. At first, I assumed that they were under construction but it looks like they just don't care.

I ordered some more shims almost a week ago and still haven't recv'd them yet. I think the part # is BP2214-001 ($4.50). Good luck. I think I may grab on of my feeler guages and hack it up if they don't show up soon.

Back in the day... Allparts catalog was just a bunch of photocopied papers. They've always been a really low overhead kind of place.

I'm with Derek on this one. I'm lazy too and I need a better way to find stuff rather than having to sift through 14 pages of junk to find what I need.

[krazyderek]

thanks nyjbkim, i'll make some food and try to figure it out

ya.... jehle i'd offer to do up a hole subcatagory page system if they'd give me the shims and lunch for free, it just bugs me that much!

[jbkim]

I'm with Derek on this one.  I'm lazy too and I need a better way to find stuff rather than having to sift through 14 pages of junk to find what I need.

I totally agree that their web site layout sucks big time... and I'm sure that they lose sales as a result of it. But to it's credit, their advanced search page for "shim" turns up the correct floyd parts right away.

[jbkim]

thanks nyjbkim, i'll make some food and try to figure it out

Hey, no problem krazyderek. Yeah, I had to eat something before I figured that tangled mess myself... now I have a headache . Time for a nap!

[goat]

I ordered some more shims almost a week ago and still haven't recv'd them yet. I think the part # is BP2214-001 ($4.50). Good luck. I think I may grab on of my feeler guages and hack it up if they don't show up soon.

For anyone who wants to calculate the sizes of the shims from feeler guages... I checked the Dr. Math forum particularly the section for circle for any helpful formulas. This diagram seems to apply to this situation:

with the formula: d = sqrt(4r^2-c^2)/2 being the most salient. Calculate your values for d (the shims) with r being either your starting or ending radius and c being the distances between 3rd/4th, 2nd/5th and 1st/6th strings.

It'd probably be easy enough to "trial and error" the correct feeler guage sizes but for those who want some mathematical rigor, the above should be a good starting point.

L.S.D.

Now I know I was meant to work with my hands!

Thank God I`m an artist

[westhemann]

whatever happened to putting the strings on and just shimming up to the correct height?measure where the strings are and use simple subtraction from where you want them to be.

[jbkim]

whatever happened to putting the strings on and just shimming up to the correct height?measure where the strings are and use simple subtraction from where you want them to be.

Ugh... for the fourth time...

It'd probably be easy enough to "trial and error" the correct feeler guage sizes but for those who want some mathematical rigor, the above should be a good starting point.

Sheesh, noone likes math anymore?

[westhemann]

math sucks

[lovekraft]

Butthead: "I'm, like, mad at numbers.."

Beavis: "Yeah, there's like too many of 'em and stuff..."