Devon8822 Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 so theres somethign funky going on around frets 1 to 4... a possible hump in the neck, or some high or low frets... its annoying the crap out of me! I need some instruction to diagnose which fret(s) is/are causing the problem, and if they are to high or if they are too low, so I can fix it. Can anybody link me to any instructions or anything like this, or just tell me. thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killemall8 Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 could it possibly be the nut too low to the fretboard? that happend to me a few times. it buzzes closer to the nut but doesnt lower down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon8822 Posted January 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 definetly not, its a fret. I have moved the nut height 50000 times, i used a ruler to detect some uneven frets, but I dont know exactly which one(s). Please, any articles/lessons on this subject? or could anyone tell me how to figure it out? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killemall8 Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 you could get a small straight piece of steel, that will go over 3 frets at a time, and rock it across the 3 frets to see if one is higher than the others. is the neck straight? is there significant upbow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 You need to be methodical when you check for these kinds of problems. Killemall8 asked the same question I would have, have you checked your nut clearance. What I am not sure of is why you would have set the nut height more than once (and I know 50000 times was a joke). Be sure you have a tiny bit of string clearance (at least a few thousandths) when you fret each string between 2 and 3. Visually confirm all your frets are seated properly. Then go ahead and straighten your neck if it is not already straight. Then move on to rocking the frets with a straight edge to identify high or low frets. After you identify the issue you can figure out how to proceed. You can look at the main Project Guitar page for set up tutorials, Stewart Macdonald also has many tutorials available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeckalpha Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I would recommend owning a fret buzz finder. It is a simple device used for finding the source of a fret buzz. Alligator clip (Optional) Wire - Battery - LED (mind polarity) or small DC light bulb - wire Clip or tape one end to the buzzing string. Pluck the string where it buzzes and move the other end along the frets until the light blinks with the buzzing. This is the source of the buzz. Lightly sand until buzzing goes away. Commercial versions of this are available, too. Google. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I would recommend owning a fret buzz finder. It is a simple device used for finding the source of a fret buzz. Alligator clip (Optional) Wire - Battery - LED (mind polarity) or small DC light bulb - wire Clip or tape one end to the buzzing string. Pluck the string where it buzzes and move the other end along the frets until the light blinks with the buzzing. This is the source of the buzz. Lightly sand until buzzing goes away. Commercial versions of this are available, too. Google. Good for a high fret, but what if you have one low fret. I guess you could test the frets above and below to isolate? I saw a tutorial on this tool, but I have never used one (seemed cool though). You still need to set your neck up in order either way (fret rocker or one of these fret buzz finders). Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon8822 Posted January 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) Its not the nut. I did the straight edge a while ago and I got that there was space inbetween the first fret.... or the 3.... depeneding which side u sit the straight edge on... So now I have this info... I dont know if fret 2 is too high, or if fret 1 is too low, or if fret 3 is to low, or what the hell. A straight edge tells me that something is wrong with some fret(s), but doesnt tell me exactly which and how. I just wanna know how I can figure this out. and, no, a fret buzz finder will not solve my problem, all it does it find high frets. Please help! Edited January 3, 2008 by Devon8822 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killemall8 Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 what happens if you put the straight edge in the middle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeckalpha Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Good for a high fret, but what if you have one low fret. I guess you could test the frets above and below to isolate? I saw a tutorial on this tool, but I have never used one (seemed cool though). You still need to set your neck up in order either way (fret rocker or one of these fret buzz finders). Peace,Rich If you have a low fret, then a solution is lowering the high frets, however that isn't as ideal as refretting the low one. If there is a low fret, then the fret above it will be high. In theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) Its not the nut. I did the straight edge a while ago and I got that there was space inbetween the first fret.... or the 3.... depeneding which side u sit the straight edge on... So now I have this info... I dont know if fret 2 is too high, or if fret 1 is too low, or if fret 3 is to low, or what the hell. A straight edge tells me that something is wrong with some fret(s), but doesnt tell me exactly which and how. I just wanna know how I can figure this out. and, no, a fret buzz finder will not solve my problem, all it does it find high frets. Please help! You need to use a straight edge that only is over three of the frets at a time. You find higher frets if it rocks over the high fret. If you check 1/2/3 and it rocks over two, but not when placed over 2/3/4 you have a low first. You want to check your frets up and down the fretboard, and under the path of each string. Check above and below to make sure you don't have more frets out of wack. Here is a video for the StewMac fret rocker-link Peace,Rich P.S. If you have not gone through the set up process correctly (are jumping around), you can muck things up. Not saying you are bouncing around, but I figured it is safer to mention it now. Also, you should be looking close to the frets. Visual indicaters can really tell you a lot. 1. A lot of wear is easily identified, 2. a fret that is not seated and high is easy to spot, 3. A fret that has been pressed to hard and is seated too deep is easy enough to spot, 4. If a hack has worked on the frets the crowns are likely to be a mess. Look very close before you attempt to correct an issue, so you choose the correct solution. Edited January 3, 2008 by fryovanni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon8822 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) Ok, I got some info about it, I just can't seem to comprehended and finalize what the problem is. Over 1/2/3 it rocks over 2/3/4 it does not rock over 3/4/5 it rocks over 4/5/6 it does not rock over 5/6/7 it rocks over 6/7/8 it does not rock and for the rest it does not rock, until you get to 10/11/12m where it rocks again. 11/12/13 does not rock 12/13/14 rocks everything after that doesn't rock, until you get to 17/18/19 which does rock 18/19/20 rocks ever so slightly 19/20/21 rocks 20/21/22 does not rock 21/22/23 rocks 22/23/24 rocks So that is what I have figured out by fret rocking each fret, the frets by the nut are especially annoying, and have more rocking. With this info I am not able to figure out if the middle fret is to high, or the ones around it are to low, etc... If someone could tell me whats up with my neck I would appreciate it. thanks Edited January 4, 2008 by Devon8822 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick500 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 When you say it rocks over 1/2/3, can you rest it on 2 without touching 1 and 3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon8822 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 When you say it rocks over 1/2/3, can you rest it on 2 without touching 1 and 3? in theory yes... the measurement is so small i probably wouldn't be able to keep it steady in that position with just my hands though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick500 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) In retrospect, I didn't phrase my question in a way that really makes sense. Let me go at it this way: - 1/2/3 rocks so... either 1 is low, 2 is high, or 3 is low - 2/3/4 does not rock so... either 2/3/4 are level, or 3 is low, or 2 and 4 are high what we've learned so far doesn't narrow down these possibilities - 3/4/5 rocks so... either 3 is low, 4 is high, or 5 is low what we've learned so far doesn't narrow down these possibilities - 4/5/6 does not rock so... either 4/5/6 are level, or 5 is low, or 4 and 6 are high what we've learned so far doesn't narrow down these possibilities - 5/6/7 rocks either 5 is low, 6 is high, or 7 is low no help yet - 6/7/8 does not rock 6/7/8 are level, or 7 is low, or 6 and 8 are high still no help - 7/8/9 does not rock (aha!) 7/8/9 are level, or 8 is low, or 7 and 9 are high We can eliminate the possibility that 8 is low, because 6/7/8 does not rock We can eliminate the possibility that 7 and 9 are high, because 6/7/8 does not rock So... it seems that 7/8/9 are level. Given that, you can work backwards and deduce that since 7/8/9 are level, 6 is level since 6/7/8 do not rock. 5 is low. 2/3/4 are level. 1 is low. At least that's what I think is the most likely situation, given the info you posted. Could be something else, but that's where I'd start. I'll leave it to you to work out the rest of the frets. [Edit: I didn't allow for the possibility that, for instance, since 2/3/4 does not rock, either *only* 2 or *only* 4 are high. Could be. But as I said, I'd look at 1 and 5 closer first.] Edited January 5, 2008 by Rick500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Ok, I got some info about it, I just can't seem to comprehended and finalize what the problem is. Over 1/2/3 it rocks over 2/3/4 it does not rock over 3/4/5 it rocks over 4/5/6 it does not rock over 5/6/7 it rocks over 6/7/8 it does not rock and for the rest it does not rock, until you get to 10/11/12m where it rocks again. 11/12/13 does not rock 12/13/14 rocks everything after that doesn't rock, until you get to 17/18/19 which does rock 18/19/20 rocks ever so slightly 19/20/21 rocks 20/21/22 does not rock 21/22/23 rocks 22/23/24 rocks So that is what I have figured out by fret rocking each fret, the frets by the nut are especially annoying, and have more rocking. With this info I am not able to figure out if the middle fret is to high, or the ones around it are to low, etc... If someone could tell me whats up with my neck I would appreciate it. thanks I am not sure if you check across each fret under the string paths or if you are just randomly rocking. From what you posted the frets that sound suspect are 1,3,5,12 in the first octave. When you rock a fret and it does not rock that tells you the middle fret is not higher than the outer frets, if the frets do rock you either have a higher fret in the middle or lower on one side or the other. Look at 6,7,8,9,10,11 and finally twelve. 6/7/8 NR(7 is lower or equal to 6 and 8),7/8/9 (8 is lower or equal to 7&9, and we just figured out 7&8 are equal), this repeats till 10/11/12 where it rocks again, and in the next three 11/12/13 no rocking(these two together tell us 12 is low). Write all your tests down on a piece of paper and study them till they make sense. Then go back and look closer with the level to visually see if this is making sense. Be sure you check these across the whole fret under each string. How straight is the neck? Give me a measure of relief. Confirm for me that you looked at the frets, and tell me if you noted any heavy fret wear, frets that were not seated fully, frets that may be crushed into the fretboard, or sloppy crowns( that would look like very wide flat tops, but not from string wear). It is hard to describe tests and interpret results when I am not sure if you are actually doing all the checks and have set the neck correctly. If you have set the neck straight, and you confirm you do not have really low and worn frets right now, you will probably want to level the whole fret board. It is not sounding like, and you are not telling me you see frets popping up or crushed (which you would have to fix before you would attempt leveling). If this stuff is still not clicking. Stare at your fretboard and study it until it does, or take it to a technition. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon8822 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) there is about .4 mm neck relief (with the 1st and 24th frets fretted, measured at the 9th fret). I did not straighten it for this. There is no heavy fret wear, or loose frets the last owner said he had a fret dress about 10 years ago. Frets look pretty tidy in ever aspect other than some of them being to low/high mainly around the nut, the other ones arent significant enough to cause a bother. The buzzing I get is basically 3rd, 2nd, and 1st frets. It is also strange because when i rock in the middle of the frets of 1/2/3 theres no rock, but any where else on the frets there is rock. I did not rock under the strings at any time. I rocked around the 2nd string for all my measurements. Its an 1990 Ibanez Jem BTW, I really hate having to cut some height off of the big frets that I like, but It looks like this must be done. There is minimal fretwear so I am guessing whoever fret dressed it last did a bad job. Or as I was told by a luthier after a minute look at it that there is probably a slight warp at the top of the neck around the nut, however this doesn't make sense if fret #1 is low. Edited January 5, 2008 by Devon8822 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon8822 Posted January 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Is there anything else you guys cant tell me about the situation? When I take it in to get dressed, will I need the measurements of the angle of the top of the fret? because I know tha different frets are shaped differently, mine are dunlop 6100's. Or are all frets shaped the same? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 there is about .4 mm neck relief (with the 1st and 24th frets fretted, measured at the 9th fret). I did not straighten it for this. There is no heavy fret wear, or loose frets the last owner said he had a fret dress about 10 years ago. Frets look pretty tidy in ever aspect other than some of them being to low/high mainly around the nut, the other ones arent significant enough to cause a bother. The buzzing I get is basically 3rd, 2nd, and 1st frets. It is also strange because when i rock in the middle of the frets of 1/2/3 theres no rock, but any where else on the frets there is rock. I did not rock under the strings at any time. I rocked around the 2nd string for all my measurements. Its an 1990 Ibanez Jem BTW, I really hate having to cut some height off of the big frets that I like, but It looks like this must be done. There is minimal fretwear so I am guessing whoever fret dressed it last did a bad job. Or as I was told by a luthier after a minute look at it that there is probably a slight warp at the top of the neck around the nut, however this doesn't make sense if fret #1 is low. Have you done much fret work, and do you have good accurate tools? This does not sound like a good guitar to practice on. Since you have taken it to a luthier and they told you there was probably a slight warp at the top of the neck. Why are you doubting the assumption? You say the 1/2/3 rock on the sides of the fret, but they do not rock down the middle of the neck. Since I have not had the guitar in hand I can't say for sure, but it sounds possible. My recommendation would be to take it to the best technition you can find and trust. I suspect this is not a time consuming fix with proper tools and experience(the fee should be reasonable). For the sake of the value of the guitar, and to save time. I would recommend you have this work done by a pro. If you are interested in learning how to do this work, maybe the tech wouldn't mind you hanging out with him and chatting a bit. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Put 600 or 800 on a good fret-leveling block and take some sideways swipes. Color fret tops with magic marker first. You'll see who's high. Hey, speaking of magic markers. I left the cap off my black marks-a-lot and that caused it to dry up enough that it's no fun to use. I emailed marks-a-lot and asked how I might be able to rejuvenate the marker (maybe some kind of solvent), and they wouldn't answer my question, but instead said they'd send me a new marker, and of course they never actually sent one (I didn't feel they owed me a marker, but could have attempted to answer my question). How nice to live in the age of incompentence out the wazoo. So, anyone have an idea of how I can get the marker working again ? By the way, if you are going to buy a marker for fret-work, I heard they have "wood color" markers now. Would be a good idea in case you accidentally mark the fret-board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick500 Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Cool. Although, I already have an ebony-colored marker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 I am guessing whoever fret dressed it last did a bad job. It does not mean that the last guy who did a fret job was a hack! It means that the frets were worked on like ten years ago and that the wood has moved a lot all along the years. Or as I was told by a luthier after a minute look at it that there is probably a slight warp at the top of the neck around the nut, however this doesn't make sense if fret #1 is low. It makes perfectly sense. Strange things happen when necks warp. Trust me as I have done several fret jobs on warped necks. Warped necks in for fret jobs were the reason I built myself a neck jig to be able to work under string pressure. Everything you have told us screams “get a fret job”. It doesn’t matter why the frets are uneven or what fret is low of high. They must be levelled and crowned. Either you do it yourself (lot of into about this floating around) or get it to someone that can convince you that they have the experience and equipment to work on the neck under string pressure. That means either a neck jig or the much simpler Rick Turner fret levellers (simple L-shaped steel or aluminium beams with sand paper attached used between strings and frets tuned to pitch). That way the frets will be levelled with the neck in the exact right (or un-right?) state of warp as it will be when being played. And I really hate having to cut some height off of the big frets that I like, but It looks like this must be done. don’t worry so much about fret height 1 if you are so concerned about the buzzing and 2 also because you will probably not notice it anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 My oblique angle two-pence: Did you bevel the fret slots before fretting? This may explain the cause of a high fret or several high frets. I would consider this for future builds so this issue doesn't recur. Are the frets seated properly? You might have a loose fret that pops when the fretboard compresses slightly under tension from the strings, but drops back into the seat easily when unstrung. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeckalpha Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 The tut fryovanni mentioned is actually linked to from the main site. http://schrammguitars.com/buzz.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon8822 Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Ok, well thanks, I am bringing it in this weekend. I have one more question though. Do I need to give the tech the name/measurements of the frets... because I know different frets have different thickness's..etc... ? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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