Denis Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 I am probably making a rod for my own back, but here's the story so far. In the mists of time in a land far away, I had a dream and wanted to build a guitar. I did a heck of a lot of research here and elsewhere, bought a couple of books, planned it all out. In short, I did everything I normally don't bother to do. The dream involved making a solid maple body with a bird's eye veneered top. I made a few mistakes along the way - actually fewer that I expected and all looked fine. I found the tutorial on veneering a top and followed it to the letter and then got really hacked off when the weights came off as the veneer was wrinkled to hell and had to come off. Before it did, I assembled the beast and it was really nice to play. I have just found someone to sand the veneer off, and as soon as it gets warm enough to spray with KTM9 I'll get her finished. Meanwhile, I thought I'd learn from my mistakes and try to plan the next one - Rock maple top (veneered with bird'seye) over a mahogany body and tele shaped. This time, I though I'd go an easier route and use iron on glue film. Wow - straight on, flat and perfect. At the same time I used the same stuff on some test bits of MDF to trial some colours on the birds eye. Some looked better than others after being sanded thru a bit, so I wondered what they would look like with some KTM9 sprayed on. As soon as the KTM9 touched the veneer, it lifted and curled in places. 48 hours later it has shrunk back a little, but no way enough. If fact, it feels like the KTM has set it in the buckled state. I am now thinking of using epoxy as a glue with maybe one of these presses here . Any comments. suggestions would be really welcome. Suicide seems a little drastic at this moment, but I am not far short!! Denis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Negatory on the epoxy idea, I would never use that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Posted January 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Drak Thanks so much for those tips. I have started the search you suggested, and like anything on the web I am finding it hard not to get sidetracked!! Judging by the amount of good stuff I have seen so far, I'll still be going thru it when it's warm enough to spray the top of the first ax. Thanks again Denis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. pierce Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 KTM-9 *is* waterbased, and it can react with some glues - LMI has mentioned some folks have had finish "sinking" around glue lines with titebond, and recommend the glue they sell when working with the KTM-9. I have noticed things using the two glues that seem to confirm this. If your joins are tight and good like they should be, it shouldn't be a problem, but on some of my practicing finish on scrap, well, it wasn't pretty. With such a large body of glue under such a thin wooden surface, I could see the KTM soaking in and doing wierd things to the glue, particularly if you're brushing on large amounts of. (I imagine thin coats sprayed on at first might help avoid this situation) Did you seal the wood prior to applying the finish? Even something like an epoxy grainfill before finishing might help the situation. Again, this is all conjecture on my part. I have not attempted real veneering, and while I use KTM-9 on all my builds, I've only finished a handful of projects, so I'm just sharing observations. And none of these things are going to help if the veneering job isn't spot on to begin with. I would totally recommend reading Drak's posts, however - I remember reading them and he has taken the time to share a lot really good information with us on the board, well worth the time invested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 j., veneer is basically paper for all intents and purposes. You don't seal it (9 times out of 10) and you don't porefill it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Posted January 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Well, I can't pretend that I have been through all Drak's posts, although there is some fascinating stuff on this board. It is an amazing knowledge and talent pool! Thank you. However, I have decided (I think) that while I will carry on practicing veneering and trying to get it right, my answer lies in getting a drop top and going from there. It feels like it's an easier, less fraught route, and if and when I manager to veneer and finish a test piece sufficiently well to have built my confocence levels up, then I may try it for real. I did find some nice things on ebay. Tried doing a search on here for him but without any success, in spite of being sure that I'd seen a positive reference to him in the Drak thread that I have been pouring over all day.This is his Ebay store burl.quilt. Have any of you got any positive experiences of dealing with him? Denis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Yes, a laminated top 1/8" or thicker would be much easier, that is a fact Jack. It sets up a whole 'nuther set of circumstances that you need to consider, but all in all, much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Posted January 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 It sets up a whole 'nuther set of circumstances that you need to consider, but all in all, much easier. Just when I thought it was safe to start work again..........................!!! Please Drak - a few words of wisdom would be welcome.. Denis (off for a short sleep while he recharges his batteries) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Thanks Drak for posting for us rookies. My 1st attempt at veneering was a mess. the top looked like bacon! In my list of tools to buy I have this clamp shown below, -Vinny http://www.grizzly.com/products/h5510 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 There are some great cabinetry books around that'll teach you the classical way of veneering with a veneer hammer and hot hide glue... worked for hundreds of years and doesn't require tons of fast clamping nor does it require a total loss if you screw up, cause hide glue can be re-heated and re-pressed with the "hammer". Do some searching for books that teach that. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 I would like to see some pictures of that operation as well if you have some to show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Posted January 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 There are some great cabinetry books around that'll teach you the classical way of veneering with a veneer hammer and hot hide glue... worked for hundreds of years and doesn't require tons of fast clamping nor does it require a total loss if you screw up, cause hide glue can be re-heated and re-pressed with the "hammer". Do some searching for books that teach that. Chris Chris, Thanks for that After my first failure, I did scout around and ended up buying Ian Hosker's book on veneering. I am sure he does know what he is talking about, but I found the book short on detail and long on how to French Polish! I know that hammer veneeriing is the traditional method for cabinet makers, but to me it sounded a lot of mess after having gone through a very long learning curve with an expensive thermostatically controlled glue pot. It isn't that I am looking for short cuts, it's more that I am 58, and that doesn't leave me very long to hone the basic skills I have to acheive what I want to do as far as building guitars is concerned. As I said, I am going to go for drop tops to get closer to the effect I want without the (same) pain, but I am also continuing to try veneering and have a test in 18 clamps as I type!!!! I'll keep you posted Denis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Posted January 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 YeeHaw!!! Couldn't wait, and unclamped my test piece after 15 hours - Flat as a drum!! Thanks soooooooo much Drak for the tips. I followed them all. Now all I have to do is try spraying the KTM9 and see that it stays flat. I am optimistic for once. Denis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Veneer is surprisingly thick when it comes to level sanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 No Drak, I haven't done it this way. HOWEVER, the guy that is teaching me acoustic building, who, no offense, considering he's older than you from what I remember hearing about you, and that he's been doing woodworking his whole life.... I'm sure he's not a retard and knows what he's talking about. So, that said, NO I can't show you anything that I've done. But if he's going to suggest this method to me when I enquired about it, I'm bound to trust the guy. I wasn't saying your method doesn't work. I've seen your work, it obviously does, I was merely offering another method that is HISTORICALLY proven to work. As for the fact of cabinets vs. guitars. Unless you're doing a carved top, the methodology should be the same. Furthermore, did I say you could REMOVE the veneer and re-use it? HELL NO! I said that you can reWORK it with the hammer by heating it up. In no way could you fully remove the veneer and hope to use it again. So, next time you wish to demean me in a post, think before you speak. Now to the guy that actually wants the help: I use Hot Hide Glue for all sorts of stuff on acoustics. Don't waste your money on the expensive pots, go to Bed Bath and Beyond, buy one of their 12 dorm room style water heater things. Empty a small jam jar, fill it with HHG, then cut a hole in the top of the plastic water heating kettle shaped thing and drop it in the water. Get a $5 thermometer and stick that in there. On mine, 1/3 power keeps it nicely at the temp you want your glue at. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 ...you have something that you 'heard about' using 'historical' methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Posted January 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Most excellent news. If you are going to apply dye directly to the veneer now, as in a wipe-on dye (which can be tricky and dangerous btw) You need to act fast when doing it. I will apply dye (after level sanding first) and have a hair dryer at the ready to dry the dye as fast as possible without going too fast or getting it too hot. Also, I don't waste any time getting the dye down and done, no continuous wiping and wiping. You just want to get rid of any liquid solvents, be it water, lacquer thinner, whatever, ASAP. You ALSO don't want to heat the guitar up with the hair dryer so much you start loosening up the glue. Lots of 'dancing around' to do with veneer. Now, the only thing I can recommend for spraying your finish is this: It doesn't 'really' matter what kind of finish you're using so much. There are 2 things you want to shoot for here: 1. Your veneer is glued down well and properly. If it is not, it will 'lift' very easily when you hit it with finish solvents, especially with really wet thick coats. 2. Your first few coats go on a little 'dry'. Do not shoot thick or wet coats for the first 4-5 coats, you want the finish to 'flash off' as quickly as possible, you don't want the solvent part of your finish to stay 'in state' as a liquid very long at all, that's what will penetrate the finish and start to try and loosen the glue back up. It's sort of a balancing act. You don't want the finish to hit the guitar dry (bad thing), but you don't want to saturate it either at first, you're looking for that 'tacky and will dry fast' area. BTW, I also level sand the veneer before doing any finishing, usually with 220 or 320, sanding with the grain. If there are any humps or depressions in the veneer surface, you want to know NOW, and get it all level before applying any finish. If you did a good job on the glueup, the level sanding will go pretty smoothly, and you will be getting happier and happier as it levels out nicely and quickly. Blow off the piece before finishing with compressed air. Veneer is surprisingly thick when it comes to level sanding, you don't need to treat it too delicately, and you DO need it pretty level before finishing. Read and noted. Thanks. However.......... I am planning on spraying KTM9 - water based acrylic. Does it sound like I shouldn't? There are no solvents to "flash off", so there will be more exposure to the wet lacquer and therefore more chance of it lifting. I am working with a test piece right now, so it isn't that important, and I know that I need to make my own mistakes. What I am thinking if I follow your train of thought is that the first few thin layers of whatever lacquer "seal" the veneer and it's adhesive from the heavier coats that are to come, so the same logic applies with KTM9. Is that the right track. FWIW I used a fast grab PVA adhesive that claims to be waterproof, on the grounds that that might help. Just want to say that this is so much more productive and even fun when I have you guys to share my issues with. Thanks Denis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 just proceed with common sense and then add your knowledge to the database of veneer applications when you figure it out successfully, we look forward to your experimentations and results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Posted January 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 You're on the right track as far as understanding what you're trying to accomplish and how to go about achieving it. I personally have not used KTM9 or PVA adhesive, so I cannot speak about what will happen there...just proceed with common sense and then add your knowledge to the database of veneer applications when you figure it out successfully, we look forward to your experimentations and results. So what's your recommendation re adhesive? I thought of using PU as that's really waterproof, but there's always a slight foaming as it sets and I thought that might compromise the bond - and even as I write that I realise how much BS is in this old head I will keep you up to date - this is a great way to learn Denis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. pierce Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 While it's waterbased, it's not the same as spraying your guitar with water, and it's not waterbased in the same way that, like, watercolor paints are. (I hope I didn't make is sound like it was in my earlier post.) There's a lot of fancy science going with KTM-9 to get it crosslinking and such, while still being "water-based" or "water-borne" or whatever - if you've ever worked with "waterbased" products in the past, this isn't really like them - it really handles and finishes a lot more like a traditional lacquer than you'd expect. Which is the point of it, I guess. That said, spraying lighter coats, it will seem to behave like how Drak mentioned when working with traditional lacquer. It might not flash off quite as quick, but close. It's not like you're spraying your guitar with tap water, or anything. The line to dance around between it hitting the guitar dry is actually a little harder to work around in my experience, but if you move a little quicker and back the gun away a tad, you can hit it with light coats that will dry fairly quickly. I haven't worked with veneer enough to know for real, but I'd say practice on scrap and see, but my experience with KTM-9 leads me to be believe it inself shouldn't be a problem if your veneer is properly applied, and you spray down light for the first few coats, as Drak says to do. The point of KTM-9 is pretty much to have the advantages of a water based lacquer while still behaving like a "real" lacquer. As far as adhesives and KTM go, I only know what LMI has said, and the info in the articles they link,by Doolin and Grevin (I believe that was the second one?) There's also a bit of info over at the grafted coatings website, and I've gleaned a bit by trial and error. I know I've noticed things that seem to echo what say in regards to KTM-9 over Titebond, and I have had nothing but good luck using the glue LMI sells or similar glues. It's certainly not a "spray KTM-9 and watch all your glue joints instantly fail" situation, but I don't know what would happen over veneer. I guess my previous post was more speculation than anything, but I've always stuck with the glues recommended by LMI and had no problems. Grafted Coatings (who make KTM9) also have a bit of info over on their boards, I don't know if any of it applies to veneer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 No Drak, I haven't done it this way. HOWEVER, the guy that is teaching me acoustic building, who, no offense, considering he's older than you from what I remember hearing about you, and that he's been doing woodworking his whole life.... I'm sure he's not a retard and knows what he's talking about. So, that said, NO I can't show you anything that I've done. But if he's going to suggest this method to me when I enquired about it, I'm bound to trust the guy. I wasn't saying your method doesn't work. I've seen your work, it obviously does, I was merely offering another method that is HISTORICALLY proven to work. As for the fact of cabinets vs. guitars. Unless you're doing a carved top, the methodology should be the same. Furthermore, did I say you could REMOVE the veneer and re-use it? HELL NO! I said that you can reWORK it with the hammer by heating it up. In no way could you fully remove the veneer and hope to use it again. So, next time you wish to demean me in a post, think before you speak. Now to the guy that actually wants the help: I use Hot Hide Glue for all sorts of stuff on acoustics. Don't waste your money on the expensive pots, go to Bed Bath and Beyond, buy one of their 12 dorm room style water heater things. Empty a small jam jar, fill it with HHG, then cut a hole in the top of the plastic water heating kettle shaped thing and drop it in the water. Get a $5 thermometer and stick that in there. On mine, 1/3 power keeps it nicely at the temp you want your glue at. Chris Don't worry I have faith in your process......I do it different from both of you and mine comes out fine.Some people think there is only one way to do things....their way ,and the person asking does not have a clue because they have never done it.I don't use a ton of clamps and let it set over night .So just so as to not screw up the flow of infomation ,I'll just leave it at that.Just do it your way for you and let the other guy take two days for a one day job.Here is a example for you if you need it. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff185/r...er/P1030711.jpg http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff185/r...er/P1030713.jpg http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff185/r...er/P1030712.jpg Oh,and by the way I just had Teisco Del Ray sign it ,and he said he liked the guitar ....good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 It's a wood to wood contact, and I always use Titebond regular for all wood to wood glueups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 If you want to offer advice, then lets see some real advice, I'm all for new tricks and techniques to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
komodo Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 This idea originally came from a veneer iron-on technique I read about from Frank Pollaro (I think) and used for a year or two before adopting my current method, If Frank Pollaro did it, that's all that needs to be said. That guy is a veneer master. I love every single thing that guy does in woodworking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Hey Dean. If you're going to bother to step up to the plate, don't just spit and bunt one hoping for a single, take a full man-size swing and swing for the stands and bring everyone home. Please: Show us a few -closeups- of your finished guitar (those pics don't show a finished guitar unless I'm mistaken) Explain your process from beginning to end Explain the specific products and tools you used and why you used them Explain what problems, if any, you encountered and how to avoid them. If you want to offer advice, then lets see some real advice, I'm all for new tricks and techniques to learn. Here are some pic's Drek http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff185/r...ds/P1290907.jpg http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff185/r...ds/P1290911.jpg http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff185/r...ds/P1290908.jpg I don't have time to play with you right now,I have to take my ball and go now.Maybe later.I'am sure your way of doing veneer is just fine.It's putting down another guy's way I have a problem with.Show me this show me that ,you would never use it if I or anyone else did so why waste my time.Now go have fun with my pic's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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