Neck Stiffness And Relief

[guitar2005]

It seems that the necks I build are real stiff, especially the last two. I used Hard Rock Maple and 2 strips of Jatoba laminated in Maple/Jat/Maple/Jat/Maple.

When I build my necks, I always make sure they're dead flat and I always re-check after the fretboard is glued and the neck is profiled. I usually have a small dropoff in the last 4 frets to ensure that I can have super low action and still do 1.5 step bends.

On my latest, the relief with strings on comes out to about 0.2mm and action set to a hair over 1/16". With a 42 gauge E string and moderate picking, that's buzz city, at least to me it is. With a 46 gauge E string and a little more relief (0.3mm), its much better but with the 42, still buzz city. Thank god I have double action truss rods to bring the relief to about 0.4mm where 90% of the buzz seems to go away, with a 46 gauge low E string. All the other strings are fine which is odd.

Neck profile is similar to an LP Custom.

I'm just wondering what's going on here. Why don't I get more relief out of my necks? It would help if I could consistently get 0.4mm relief without having to force it on the neck.

Frets are Stew Mac Medium/Highest and the slots are cut with the SM fret saw.

Could I let the neck sit a certain way to force more relief before I finish it?

[Woodenspoke]

It seems that the necks I build are real stiff, especially the last two. I used Hard Rock Maple and 2 strips of Jatoba laminated in Maple/Jat/Maple/Jat/Maple.

When I build my necks, I always make sure they're dead flat and I always re-check after the fretboard is glued and the neck is profiled. I usually have a small dropoff in the last 4 frets to ensure that I can have super low action and still do 1.5 step bends.

On my latest, the relief with strings on comes out to about 0.2mm and action set to a hair over 1/16". With a 42 gauge E string and moderate picking, that's buzz city, at least to me it is. With a 46 gauge E string and a little more relief (0.3mm), its much better but with the 42, still buzz city. Thank god I have double action truss rods to bring the relief to about 0.4mm where 90% of the buzz seems to go away, with a 46 gauge low E string. All the other strings are fine which is odd.

Neck profile is similar to an LP Custom.

I'm just wondering what's going on here. Why don't I get more relief out of my necks? It would help if I could consistently get 0.4mm relief without having to force it on the neck.

Frets are Stew Mac Medium/Highest and the slots are cut with the SM fret saw.

Could I let the neck sit a certain way to force more relief before I finish it?

I am not sure this is really a problem. Of course as you increase the string gage it will require more force to tension the strings to pitch and thus your change in relief going from a 42 to a 46 gage low E string. I don't think the profile makes any difference as long as its within the norm (not too thick), and I am not sure I would recommend a less dense piece of wood for your necks like mahogany which may have the opposite effect and require opposite adjustments. I am less inclined as a builder to worry about building a super stiff neck than a neck which will work for the design at hand and is properly constructed. This does not sound like your problem. You also have to realise each piece of wood will be different even from the same species. The same profiled neck constructed from two different maple boards with have similar but slightly different properties.

Probably others will comment on the action and some theory on string vibration and gage all of which are better answered by more experienced builders.

[fryovanni]

Not sure why you would think you need less stiffness, or more relief. A dead straight neck with no relief will allow you to get low action. Adding a lot of relief has little effect on performance (well at least if you reset your action back to the same point). A bit of relief may help control issues with changes due to humidity. It sounds to me like you have another problem happening here.

Rich

[doug]

I'm with Rich on this... Dead flat necks seem to allow lower over all action. Larger strings sometimes need more space between them and the fret. I usually setup with .09 - .042 unless the customer specifies a larger size. I do the setup right from the start so there's little opportunity to do a side by side comparison. There are a lot of factors involved too.

-Doug

[erikbojerik]

With a new neck I almost always find that the relief increases after being strung up a few months, seems like the neck settles in after that.

Does it buzz only when you fret toward the middle of the neck? Did you mill any kind of fallaway into the upper frets?

[guitar2005]

I'm with Rich on this... Dead flat necks seem to allow lower over all action. Larger strings sometimes need more space between them and the fret. I usually setup with .09 - .042 unless the customer specifies a larger size. I do the setup right from the start so there's little opportunity to do a side by side comparison. There are a lot of factors involved too.

-Doug

On this one neck, with a 42 gauge string, the low E buzzes a lot and its only the low E, which I find odd. More relief is the only thing that cures it. Other necks are fine.

Frets are nicely crowned, no high frets. Open string is fine, 1st-2nd frets are fine too. When I get to the G, its buzz city. G# is fine but buzz remains right up to the 14th fret which to me, point to not enough relief.

In the end, the guitar is spec'd to be setup with a 46 low E so does it really matter? Not really I guess. The 42 was just a test I did. I'd still like to understand this and really, it should work.

On most guitars, I set the relief at 0.3mm, which is pretty low in my opinion and a 9-42 set of strings should work just fine with relief setup that way and low action. There will be some buzzing but it should be kept to a minimum with a good neck.

If I do need more relief, I'd like to be able to have more, naturally, without having to force it in. It just seems that I build stiff necks. Never been a problem 'till now but I'm probab;y just not understanding what's going on here.

Edited April 18, 2008 by guitar2005

[fryovanni]

I'm with Rich on this... Dead flat necks seem to allow lower over all action. Larger strings sometimes need more space between them and the fret. I usually setup with .09 - .042 unless the customer specifies a larger size. I do the setup right from the start so there's little opportunity to do a side by side comparison. There are a lot of factors involved too.

-Doug

On this one neck, with a 42 gauge string, the low E buzzes a lot and its only the low E, which I find odd. More relief is the only thing that cures it. Other necks are fine.

Frets are nicely crowned, no high frets. Open string is fine, 1st-2nd frets are fine too. When I get to the G, its buzz city. G# is fine but buzz remains right up to the 14th fret which to me, point to not enough relief.

In the end, the guitar is spec'd to be setup with a 46 low E so does it really matter? Not really I guess. The 42 was just a test I did. I'd still like to understand this and really, it should work.

On most guitars, I set the relief at 0.3mm, which is pretty low in my opinion and a 9-42 set of strings should work just fine with relief setup that way and low action. There will be some buzzing but it should be kept to a minimum with a good neck.

If I do need more relief, I'd like to be able to have more, naturally, without having to force it in. It just seems that I build stiff necks. Never been a problem 'till now but I'm probab;y just not understanding what's going on here.

The thing about relief, if it was to allow for a little extra string vibration due to a slightly greater clearance when strings are played open or to say about the third fret. The benifit is gone much higher than that. Because although you have made a dip that centers around the middle of the neck, as soon as you drop your action back down at say the 12th fret you have little more clearance as you approach that dip. I am not being very articulate here, but draw it out on paper referencing your string clearance with relief added(may be helpful to draw in cad so you can really look close and use measuring tools to see what is happening), then use a straight edge to see what happens to the clearance.

You are doing one of two things here I suspect. Either you pluck too heavy for the action you are using or you have something that is off on that neck (likely very small problem that is hard for you to detect). Don't confuse yourself by grasping for obscure problems. A dead straight neck with no relief whatsoever will hold the clearance you mentioned without strong fret buzz. Adding relief mainly adds an element of protection against neck movement(that could go into a real problem if it took a straight neck into slight back bow). It has the effect of possibly masking bad geometry, but it will not clear up the problem all the way down the neck.

Peace,Rich

Peace,Rich

[fryovanni]

I remembered where I put this drawing I put together a while back (when I was trying to nail down the dynamics of neck relief). I tried creating a picture of the drawing and putting it up on my photobucket album (but the compression makes it impossible to read the text). This is the picture.

The drawing has three situations. One a dead straight neck with a given 1st fret clearance, and 12th fret clearance. I show the string open, then fretted at different frets) The next two drawings show strong relief, one drawing indicates a corrected 1st fret clearance after adding relief, the second without adjustment for first fret clearance. My modeling in CAD was based on typical placement of a truss rod (which of course could vary a bit, but it illustates the concept pretty clearly).

If you would like a copy of a ledgable PDF. Shoot me a PM with an email address and I will send it to you.

Peace,Rich

[Mickguard]

I'm facing a similar issue here.

The neck is new, supposedly (the ebay seller says he bought it in February, so at least it's more or less unplayed). It's really a great neck, one of the nicest I've ever played. Made by Goldo. It's maple with a rosewood fretboard --although it might be ebony, because it looks a little too dark to be rosewood (?, and because of the stiffness issue). It's vintage style with the truss rod adjuster at the heel end. And apparently the truss rod is one-way.

Neck is 7.25" radius. Strings are .10 -.46. (what I normally play)

The neck has been under string tension for a week now. At the time I put the strings on, I had to loosen the truss rod to add in a bit of relief. But I didn't measure anything, I wanted to wait.

Today I used my guage to set the relief where I like it-- .25 mm at the 6th fret. It's almost there -- it's just shy of .20 mm. But it seems the neck is too stiff -- beyond that, the truss rod just spins. I can tighten it up of course, so I know it's not broken.

Anyway, even with the action a bit higher than I like, I'm getting a bit of buzz on the D string, mostly (the A will buzz too if I pick hard enough). It's still on the 'musical' side of things--that is, the note still rings out, and louder than the buzz. The buzz is only on the first and second frets. After that it's okay. Everything rings out--all the way to the 22nd fret. So it's clearly an issue of not enough relief.

Still, I'd like to lower the action just a little bit more, which means I'll need to get the relief where I like it.

So I'm thinking I should try to move up to a higher guage string set -- the question is, which? How big of a difference is there in terms of playability between a set of .11s and a set of .12s ?

My hope is to increase the string tension enough to allow me to use the truss rod to set the relief. Will the .11s be enough to give me that nudge, or should I go straight to .12s?

I'm guessing the seller got rid of the neck because of this issue (he took a big hit on the price too). But like I say, otherwise, the neck is great. It's one of those necks where you pick the guitar up to play just for a couple of minutes, and an hour later, you're still playing.

[Mattia]

Rosewood can be almost black-dark, but always has visible grain. Ebony (and ebonized maple ) do not. Plus, they smell different when scraped.

As for adjusting the rod: apply force and bend the neck, then adjust the rod. Decreases the odds of premature nut wear/stripping.

[Mickguard]

Rosewood can be almost black-dark, but always has visible grain. Ebony (and ebonized maple ) do not. Plus, they smell different when scraped.

As for adjusting the rod: apply force and bend the neck, then adjust the rod. Decreases the odds of premature nut wear/stripping.

I'm assuming it's rosewood, until I have proof to the contrary. It feels like rosewood, anyway. But I do have a couple of ebony boards with quite pronounced grain, almost identical color and very similar pore structure.

The nut turns just fine, that's not the problem --the problem is that it's at the end of its useful movement --that is, turning it any more has no further effect. I can tighten the rod (in order to counteract string tension and reduce relief), but since it's not a two-way, I can't use it to push the neck in the other direction (in order to add relief).

[fryovanni]

Mick,

You might want to check the nut clearance, and the fret level on your first few frets . Assuming your action at 12 is about 4/64ths . Adding relief will increase the string clearance at a rate of about .0254mm(one thousandth) for every .0762mm(three thousandths) of relief you add or there abouts with regards to the nut and first fret(if open string buzzing is an issue). Your next fret clearance when fretting at 1 will increase at about .0046mm per. .0254mm (.00018" per. .001") of added relief, and your next fret clearance when fretting 2 will increase at about .0033mm per. .0254mm(.00013" per. .001") of added relief. That next fret clearance increase will continue to reduce as you move up the neck until you actually see a next loss in next fret clearance somewhere around the seventh fret up to about the body. Those are pretty slight next fret clearance differences if you only want to squeeze out an extra .05mm of relief, and plan to reset your 12th fret clearance back to 4/64ths. If your issue is with fret heights then you should identify it.

Increasing your action 1/64th will give you a steady next fret clearance increase down the neck of about .0018" (not greatest at 1, diminishing to about 7, and losing clearance through about 14-16). Try raising your action .25mm at the 12th. That will raise your next fret clearance better than 4 times higher than the greatest increase by adding .05mm relief. It would at least tell you if changing strings and forcing more relief is going to have any hope af giving you what you want.

I know a lot of people adjust relief to clear up problems, but I think most of what they are doing is not resetting the nut clearance, or dropping the action back where it was(effectively they are raising the strings more than solving an issue with the relief itself.

[Mickguard]

Okay, fryovanni, I think you've put me on the right track.

The buzzing is worse on the open string. It's pretty much confined to the D string, and to a lesser extent to the A string --the E string seems fine. And the unwound strings too. Which makes me want to look at the nut first of all.

The nut is a temporary drop in that I had to shim to get to the correct height, and the nut had previously been adjusted for a different neck with a different radius.

So what I've just done is use a bit of tin foil to raise the D string slot --and not only does that solve the open string buzz, but it seems to have solved the buzz on the first couple of frets too.

Which is something I hadn't expected or thought about...but it makes sense to me now. Just because the string is fretted doesn't mean it isn't affected by the height/depth of the nut, at least on the first frets.

From the setups I've done on other guitars, I've always been surprised at how the most minute changes have a pretty dramatic impact on the playability. I'm looking for that 'transforming' moment, if you know what I mean, where all of the sudden the guitar just feels....right. For me, getting the relief right is the first step toward that.

I'm still interested in trying out a heavier gauge string, because I've been curious about what effect that will have on the tone too --especially if I can get a chunkier rhythm sound. And I do feel that the truss rod should be engaged--and the heavier gauge should allow that.

And hopefully the store will have a replacement nut too!

[guitar2005]

So what I've just done is use a bit of tin foil to raise the D string slot --and not only does that solve the open string buzz, but it seems to have solved the buzz on the first couple of frets too.

Which is something I hadn't expected or thought about...but it makes sense to me now. Just because the string is fretted doesn't mean it isn't affected by the height/depth of the nut, at least on the first frets.

Ok - I don't understand this. How can the nut slot height affect a fretted note? That just doesn't make sense to me. For my problem, the open E string is fine, 1st fret, 2nd fret are OK, I get to the G and its horrible. yes, I checked for level frets, time and time again. I also checked that the fret is properly seated. I'm willing to try this... but I need to understand.

Anyways, I'm curious about this nut mod you did and how it affected the buzzing.

[Mickguard]

Well, I admit I'm surprised by this too.

But it kind of makes sense to me....when you're fretting you're not pushing the string all the way down to the wood, you're just pushing it enough to make contact with the fret.

Now with the low slot you run the risk of pressing the string too far past the fret, lowering (or increasing the tension of) the string just that much beyond the string to make it buzz against one of the next strings. Just conjecturing here.

The more relief you have the less likely you'll run into this problem. The higher the nut slots, the less likely you'll have this problem. Combine a low slot with too little relief, and you're much more likely to have a problem. Especially since you also have to deal with the potential of varying fret heights.

By raising the string in the nut slot, I've been able to make the guitar accommodate my grip--I tend to fret harder than I should--despite not being able to get the relief exactly where I want it. The plus side is it forces me to lighten up my grip a bit, which I've been working on anyway.

I also think there might be something about the overall angle --the sharper angle created by the raised nut slot helps to raise the string, even beyond the fretted note-- not a lot, just enough.

I don't know if this is the problem with your guitar -- on mine, the buzz started with the open string and progressively lessenend from fret to fret. But it only costs a scrap of aluminum foil to find out.

[Bryan316]

Could your necks benefit from an uneven action? Have your high E and B strings riding very close to the fretboard, and your low E riding higher?

As a bass player, I greatly appreciate a low action on the higher tuned strings for fingertapping and soloing, but I jack up my low B string so it doesn't clack against the frets when I'm wailing away on it. Is there anything that says you can't do this on a guitar?

[fryovanni]

Could your necks benefit from an uneven action? Have your high E and B strings riding very close to the fretboard, and your low E riding higher?

As a bass player, I greatly appreciate a low action on the higher tuned strings for fingertapping and soloing, but I jack up my low B string so it doesn't clack against the frets when I'm wailing away on it. Is there anything that says you can't do this on a guitar?

It is pretty normal to adjust your larger strings higher than your smaller strings.

[Mickguard]

Could your necks benefit from an uneven action?

One of the things I've discovered since I started building is how even minute changes in the strings affect a guitar's playability. And how, once I figured out what makes a guitar playable for me, I actually started to play better.

And that goes for relative string heights -- last night at practice I played the new guitar, even though I haven't finished setting it up yet --haven't set the action yet for one thing, and the nut still has issues. Both are 'close enough'....but I can clearly feel the difference between this and the two guitars I play most often (both Fenders...in fact, I used the setup of my Strat as the basis of figuring out the setup that works for me). For most songs, it wasn't a big issue, but a couple of songs were really difficult to play because of that.

Another thing I've found it important to watch out for --string spacing. If even one string is just a little offline, the guitar quickly becomes unplayable.

Otherwise, yes, the bass strings tend to be a bit higher, but I think it's more subtle than you describe --the relative distance of the bottom of the bass and treble strings are about the same.

But I also feel that getting your string action and neck relief set up properly for you (and the radius) is a big part of what makes a neck feel right --probably even more than the shape of the back of the neck.

I got into building when I started taking lessons...the two kind of go hand-in-hand for me. The more I learn to play, the more I understand what works for me on a guitar. The more I understand what I like on a guitar, the better I'm able to play.

[Prostheta]

My nuts causing me problems is why i'm using zero frets on my builds. The nut then merely becomes a guide, and to tension the string over the zero fret. Somehow, they seem more "right" to me.

[Mickguard]

My nuts causing me problems is why i'm using zero frets on my builds. The nut then merely becomes a guide, and to tension the string over the zero fret. Somehow, they seem more "right" to me.

I tried the zero fret on my last couple of builds, but just didn't like it. Mostly for the sound -- I really like the open string sound you get with the nut, that you don't get with the zero fret. I agree though, it's easier to get the action part right.

I haven't tried cutting my own nut yet, I've only adjusted pre-slotted nuts. But I've found that's not too difficult (I borrow the files for that).

[guitar2005]

I tried raising the nut slot a little as an experiment and it didn't make a difference.

I'll just let the neck settle a little more.

[fryovanni]

I tried raising the nut slot a little as an experiment and it didn't make a difference.

I'll just let the neck settle a little more.

Exactly when are you getting buzzing? Is it when you play open strings, when you are fretting(if so where), when your pulling a 1-1/2 step bend(I assume not with your low E though)? What is your string clearance at the first fret when you capo the strings between 2 and 3? Are you absolutely sure you have level frets with the neck set dead straight(across the entire width of the neck)? You said your action is set to better than 1/16th which is not super low (I think that is about spec. for many factory guitars), and shouldn't be an issue with your gauge strings(larger high strings on a bass may require 1/64th extra). Lastly, how hard do you play? The only cure for a heavy hand is higher action. Raising your action a tiny bit will do more than extra heavy relief(and the relief only helps in some areas).

[guitar2005]

I tried raising the nut slot a little as an experiment and it didn't make a difference.

I'll just let the neck settle a little more.

Exactly when are you getting buzzing? Is it when you play open strings, when you are fretting(if so where), when your pulling a 1-1/2 step bend(I assume not with your low E though)? What is your string clearance at the first fret when you capo the strings between 2 and 3? Are you absolutely sure you have level frets with the neck set dead straight(across the entire width of the neck)? You said your action is set to better than 1/16th which is not super low (I think that is about spec. for many factory guitars), and shouldn't be an issue with your gauge strings(larger high strings on a bass may require 1/64th extra). Lastly, how hard do you play? The only cure for a heavy hand is higher action. Raising your action a tiny bit will do more than extra heavy relief(and the relief only helps in some areas).

Low E string, 42 gauge string. frets 1, 2 are perfect, as is the open note. 3rd fret is awful. 4th fret and up are bearable considering the low action (a hair over 1/16", measured at the 17th fret, which to me is low action). For some reason, 3rd fret is buzz city. I checked for uneven fret height and its fine. I'm thinking maybe the fret isn't properly seated. I'll drop in a bit of CA glue in there.

Of course, when plucking the string, I tend to go a little hard when testing for buzzing... but at the 3rd fret, its bad.

[fryovanni]

I tried raising the nut slot a little as an experiment and it didn't make a difference.

I'll just let the neck settle a little more.

Exactly when are you getting buzzing? Is it when you play open strings, when you are fretting(if so where), when your pulling a 1-1/2 step bend(I assume not with your low E though)? What is your string clearance at the first fret when you capo the strings between 2 and 3? Are you absolutely sure you have level frets with the neck set dead straight(across the entire width of the neck)? You said your action is set to better than 1/16th which is not super low (I think that is about spec. for many factory guitars), and shouldn't be an issue with your gauge strings(larger high strings on a bass may require 1/64th extra). Lastly, how hard do you play? The only cure for a heavy hand is higher action. Raising your action a tiny bit will do more than extra heavy relief(and the relief only helps in some areas).

Low E string, 42 gauge string. frets 1, 2 are perfect, as is the open note. 3rd fret is awful. 4th fret and up are bearable considering the low action (a hair over 1/16", measured at the 17th fret, which to me is low action). For some reason, 3rd fret is buzz city. I checked for uneven fret height and its fine. I'm thinking maybe the fret isn't properly seated. I'll drop in a bit of CA glue in there.

Of course, when plucking the string, I tend to go a little hard when testing for buzzing... but at the 3rd fret, its bad.

So you think the 4th is a bit high or 3 is possibly low. Your action is lower than I thought. I normally measure at 12. Out of curiosity what is your action at 12?

Either way an isolated problem is not going to be solved with adding relief, so getting to the bottom of the fret problem sounds like a good way to go.