Squier And Low End Guitars

[wohzah]

I was thinking how much hand work goes into the asian guitars and lower end models? My chief example being the cost of a squier or asain fender versus an american one. Is it just he cost of labor, are the asian models being built by workers being paid less or is there more machines doing the work?

[ihocky2]

They are almost completely machine made. The bodies and neck are cut on CNC. The frets are worked a little by a person, but they are mostly inserted by machine. If I remember correctly they are painted with a curtain type sprayer.

[Dadovfor]

If the volume of machining versus hand-made input is the only difference, wouldn't the end result be a guitar of similar quality but at a lower price? Or are the inputs (wood, hardware, etc) also of inferior quality?

On a related note ... I know from an earlier posting that CNC removes the soul from a guitar but I'm not sure what sort of discount you'd expect for that???

[Erik Runeson]

I was thinking how much hand work goes into the asian guitars and lower end models? My chief example being the cost of a squier or asain fender versus an american one. Is it just he cost of labor, are the asian models being built by workers being paid less or is there more machines doing the work?

Labor costs is probably the main difference. This also includes skipping on quality control, not being too careful when selecting wood, etc. On dirt-cheap ($100) guitars, the hardware and wood is very low quality. You'll find flimsy tuners, bridges that will wear out quickly, plywood bodies etc.

However, if you step the price up just a bit (say to $300) you can sometimes find instruments where the primary difference to a similar US made instrument is price.

[fuzzjunkie]

It's pretty spooky how good some overseas guitars are. Like ER said, stuff is the $300-$600 is pretty darn

nice. I'm sure the discriminating player would never go for it, but it's good enough for me. Even with slave

labor, I don't know how some of the places build guitars so cheap.

[Bmth Builder]

CNC removes the soul from a guitar

I disagree, mass production certainly removes any 'soul' from a guitar but I dont think the CNC is the reason, its as said the lack of any care for the instrument, quality control components etc, and the fact they're all identical

PRS uses CNC to cut the body, and although the shape of the body is always the same, no 2 private stocks are going to be. They still have a huge amount of human input and care into the guitars, selecting the exact wood etc all the way to the final set up.

[Malakai]

I was thinking how much hand work goes into the asian guitars and lower end models? My chief example being the cost of a squier or asain fender versus an american one. Is it just he cost of labor, are the asian models being built by workers being paid less or is there more machines doing the work?

Labor costs is probably the main difference. This also includes skipping on quality control, not being too careful when selecting wood, etc. On dirt-cheap ($100) guitars, the hardware and wood is very low quality. You'll find flimsy tuners, bridges that will wear out quickly, plywood bodies etc.

However, if you step the price up just a bit (say to $300) you can sometimes find instruments where the primary difference to a similar US made instrument is price.

dunno about that.

My Squier actually has pretty good tuners. They're very fluid in movement and require and dont require alot of effort to move. The locking ones that I just bought are much stiffer(maybe thats what people want? I dont know). My buddy's new american fender had these god awful tuners on it. I had to turn hard to get any movement.

Now the trem on the squier sucks. The knife edge is pitted and destroyed after a year of non use since I never used the trem much. Just replaced it with a wilkonson style from guitarfetish.

I dont think many companies make bodies out of plywood anymore(The offbrand knockoffs probably). Wood quality? Seriously unless it's a transparent finish\oil finish the quality\grade doesn't matter all that much as paint is covering it's defects.

One thing about the cheaper ones is plastic nuts.

[ProfDrum]

Guitarist Magazine recently did a Yamaha indonesian factory tour, and a lot of the work was done by hand, although the majority was still CNC. I'll see if I can find it and scan it sometime.

[DC Ross]

The Agile guitars from Korea have almost a cult following. I picked up a new 2300(?) a couple of years ago for less than $300, and while it's not PRS quality, it is an extremely good guitar. Bone nut (it comes with a graphite one as well), 2 piece mahogany body, quilted maple veneer top, fully bound body, neck & headstock, decent hardware (Grover tuners, dunno about the bridge & tail, but they look good, feel good & operate well). If I'm being 100% honest, I'd say the overall quality is on-par with or slightly less than current LPs (depending on the specific LP you're comparing).

[Mickguard]

I have the feeling that it would cost a manufacturer much more to install a CNC production line capable of churning out those guitars than it would to pay 300 workers to do the same thing. The only time it makes sense to automate is when the wage scale rises.

[fryovanni]

Labor rates are probably the most significant difference, combined with less time spent for quality control, and attension to detail. Energy costs are also a huge factor, as how that energy is produced vs environmental impact is going to play a significant reginal role(energy cost exceeding labor is becoming a reality). Components must be the cheapest possible with durability, functionality playing second card to cost. Wood must be cheap, with little time allowed for selection, proper insurance of drying, or quality control. Finishing is going to be fast and efficient, but again the finishing methods and materials will be applied to get the job done fast not with less regard for quality. Little quality control, and a cheaper finishing material(possibly less safety consideration, less consideration to environmental impact). These guitars $100-200 guitars have to be delivered for $50-75(with a profit for the company, and losses or rejects built into that number). These guitars are built to be disposable after a little use, and playability or function during that limited life is going to play second fiddle to making a lot of cheap instruments.

I suspect some extreamly skilled people that work on these guitars have the ability to make outstanding guitars, that would play wonderfully and last. You are not paying them to make a quality guitar though. You are asking the people that touch that guitar to do their work along with hundreds of others this week to barely put food on the table (they don't have time to stop if something is looking wrong, they have to keep moving).

There is nothing wrong with CNC, it is an amazing tool. As with any tool there are levels of accuracy vs speed, some tools are built for better durability and accuracy, these tools require mainenance and monitoring as well as set up to work well. Running cheaper cutter heads longer, or quick sloppy maintenance and or set up can lead to less accurate results. Running faster with lower resolution may be cheaper, but accuracy and results are not as good. Again quality control is required, but not much is budgeted, so expect little. CNC takes the "soul" out of a guitar about as much as using a router or bandsaw(IMO), I don't buy into that line of logic at all.

If these factories that are capable. Are given the budget to build with quality in mind. They could produce outstanding guitars, but then they cost a bit more. If you believe the workers at that factory should be safe, and considerations to environmental impacts are worth spending a bit more, they will cost a bit more. If you actually think the person building your guitar should make a decent living, with reasonable benifits, and be able to retire someday(I suspect you would want these things for yourself), then that will cost a bit more. The kinda ironic part is that the retailer is probably going to make as much if not more than the factory. Too bad you can't take the cheesy sales guy out of the equation and use that wage to buy the guy building it a little more time.

[Tim37]

I would like to chime in here

My first guitar was a squier (not sure were it was made and i dont have it any more) the tuners where bad the trem was worse but that can be replaced. a friend of mine had painted several guitars and the one he had to sand all the way down looked like that cheap asian mahogany (its not mahogany but looks a lot like it)

as far as asian guitars go hey why not i have a schectar i paid around 400 for and i love it is a good looking guitar and i love the feel of it. i also have a low end dean that is an amazing guitar for 80 bucks ok its cheap every thing about it is cheap but some how it works out to be a really cool cheap guitar it does need tuners and pickups (im working on that and a few other things right now)

any way as far as a squier my main complaite was the neck was really narrow at the nut i have long fingers and kinda like a wider thick neck.

[Woodenspoke]

I will first say I am not much of a guitar player. But I did pick up a used 2002 Squire Strat about a year ago. Needed some work, truss rod adjustment, intonation just basic set up, still has a high fret on upper end of the bass side but it is a good instrument for what I paid $49 (eBay and it was coverd in stickers which droppped the price; I removed them all with WD-40 in 15 minutes). I had no issues with the playability and sound from the guitar.

I have seen some pretty shoddy work on American made prducton guitars, also almost completely made by machine. The bottom line is you are paying for American labor and a label. Once you paint a piece of wood does it matter how it was painted, it's just painted. Sure the pickups on an American made guitar and electronics are one notch up from a $300 guitar but is the guitar itself any less of an instrument I would say not. Does it pay to have repairs done on a cheap guitar no. You can certainly justify $200 on a $1200 guitar but not on a $300 guitar. So you now have a longevity issue here if you do not do your own repairs.

A friend of mine picked up a fretless squire bass said it was one of the best fretless production basses he had played. I believe just like every production instrument you will find bad ones and good ones. I also find most shops no longer have the time to setup instruments which is why $1200 guitar may get you 20 minutes of shop time where $300 will not. The setup alone may be a big factor in how well the instrument plays and sounds.

Just my opinion.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Woodenspoke

[stringkilla]

Certainly wages are a factor but materials are a second. I have a Squire Telecaster I bought at Guitar Center. No case, I didn't even try it out. I got real lucky it seems because this is a great guitar. It features a wide neck, 1.75" at the nut, a fabulously straight, hard ,twenty four, well fretted neck. The only problem is that it sounds like a Les Paul I once had. I can't make it sound like a classic Tele, where's the twang?? That is where material choice comes into play. I ,most certainly cannot justify the going prices of Fender and Gibson with essentially the same manufacturing sequence. They both use Cnc and blanket spray equipment. Use the same CNC multi spindle router to shape the neck. The main difference here, is the worker, must get paid a wage that allows him to get into his SUV fill it with $4.00 a gallon gasoline and buy food tha its inflated by some 5000 percent so he can feed his or her family. We as educated or elitist consumers are at the mercy of an ever escalating price war for mere profits not quality or playability. Just my two cents on the ever question of quality vs price.

[j. pierce]

Comparing my first guitar with the cheap ones at the wall at the local music shop, I will say, that a few hundred dollars for an entry level guitar gets you a lot better guitar than it did when I was a kid and first started playing, and I'm only 30.