My Plywood Build

[WezV]

I would hope these considerations are brought up honestly, for the sake of the new builder reading this thread who will see all these guys saying cool go for it, and assume it is reliable.

Rich

its a good point fry....but i reckon they are going to go for it anyway and personally i want to see someone do this - because i aint going to bother anytime soon. If we are saying 'cool, go for it', its only because the subject comes up so many times

I know what will happen, it will sound good for a plywood guitar but good for a plywood guitar is not comparable to solid wood

ps, anyone remember a OSB carved top les paul (might have been over at MIMF) - it was a very cool looking guitar if nothing else

[zyonsdream]

Well, I’ve got the body glued and rough cut and I’ve been cutting out the wings with no machining issues so far. The plywood I’m using isn’t the chip board kind but it is not high quality stuff. I’ll get the info off of it tonight and let you all know what actual grade it is. I know when I got it the whole sheet was really cheep and it’s absolutely not furniture grade ply. I’m not seeing any real issues with machining and for stability, well, it’s going to be a semi hollow guitar so that should really show us how stable the guitar will be.

I was going to go with a set neck and I’m still debating on using a ply neck so building two necks might just be the answer for me.

As for the new builder…that’s sort of why this build is being done. Should a new builder use lesser woods on their first build to avoid spending extra money and will it cause more issues than it’s worth and will it have the possibility to yield a well playing well sounding guitar? Those are really the answers I’m looking for.

[Prostheta]

My take on the "tone debate":

It is easy to disguise/lose the tonal characteristics imparted by woods via pickups, processing and amps. What I mean is - you can easily make an instrument made from "nice" materials sound like one made from bad materials through bad choice of pickups, hardware, build quality, etc.

Pop some EMGs in there and it'll more than likely sound like a guitar with some EMGs in it. Or, a set of strings stretched between two points with EMGs near them :-D

[Bryan316]

That's it. I'm making a pine bass. Carbon fiber reinforcement bars and truss rod SHOULD keep the neck strong. I'll get some of that Select Pine from the HD, and laminate them together for the thru-neck. Then, some 1x8 boards stacked should be good for body wings.

I'ma make a 2 pound bass!!! LOL

[zyonsdream]

My take on the "tone debate":

It is easy to disguise/lose the tonal characteristics imparted by woods via pickups, processing and amps. What I mean is - you can easily make an instrument made from "nice" materials sound like one made from bad materials through bad choice of pickups, hardware, build quality, etc.

Pop some EMGs in there and it'll more than likely sound like a guitar with some EMGs in it. Or, a set of strings stretched between two points with EMGs near them :-D

This is my point exactly. I personally feel that wood makes little difference in the overall “tone” of a SOLID body instrument and the pickups, pots, wiring cables and amps really shape the overall tone of a guitar. But, a lot of people think high dollar manufacturers don’t use low grade wood because it produces lesser quality instruments and not because of the stigma off attaching the “plywood” name to their guitars. So you are basically saying the same thing I am but I’m not going to stick high dollar pickups on. I’m going to go with a middle of the road (no more than $45.00) pickup to make my comparisons from.

My guitar is also going to be semi-hollow with a 5” wide center core that extends the entire way through the guitar. This construction will help test the rigidity and stability of the plywood and the open air wings will help to show some of the natural acoustics that a semi hollow has. With the center core, it’s the best of both worlds –to me! In my world the best tone comes from a slightly over driven blues guitar so that’s my aim.

Unfortunately the motor housing in my router shattered and the clutch went out causing the router to vibrate excessively so I have to pick up a new router on pay day so for the next day or so my progress is stopped!

[avengers63]

Unfortunately the motor housing in my router shattered and the clutch went out causing the router to vibrate excessively so I have to pick up a new router on pay day so for the next day or so my progress is stopped!

FWIW: I bought a combo kit from Ryobi at Home Depot. It had a 1.5hp router (1/4" collet) and a small router table for $100. If you had a 1/2" shaft router before, this obviously won't do you any good, but here it is anyway.

[fryovanni]

I've got a pair of builds going at the moment but once that's done, I'd probably be down to do some sort of crazy plytar. Plywood neck-thru with a pine top for carving practice. With all of the spare parts I've got laying around, I could probably do it for less than $50.

Carving standard ply will be very different from carving solid wood FWIW. You would do better to carve something like pine so you could get used to carving with the grain.

Well, I’ve got the body glued and rough cut and I’ve been cutting out the wings with no machining issues so far. The plywood I’m using isn’t the chip board kind but it is not high quality stuff. I’ll get the info off of it tonight and let you all know what actual grade it is. I know when I got it the whole sheet was really cheep and it’s absolutely not furniture grade ply. I’m not seeing any real issues with machining and for stability, well, it’s going to be a semi hollow guitar so that should really show us how stable the guitar will be.

I was going to go with a set neck and I’m still debating on using a ply neck so building two necks might just be the answer for me.

As for the new builder…that’s sort of why this build is being done. Should a new builder use lesser woods on their first build to avoid spending extra money and will it cause more issues than it’s worth and will it have the possibility to yield a well playing well sounding guitar? Those are really the answers I’m looking for.

Plywood depending on the grade is going to be wildly variable in terms of stability(higher grades made with clear wood will be very stable, low grade who knows). Strength and stiffness will vary with low grade ply because of the wood and standards applied to what wood can be used to make that plywood. If you use a lower grade(what you will find at home depot or lowes) it will be pure dumb luck if it remains stable enough for a neck, and from sheet to sheet/ section to section your stiffness will vary. It directly relates to the grading and what materials meet that minimum standard. You are not going to get meaningful information for first time builders, at best you will get lucky with the bits you use (that is nothing to hang your hat on in a recommendation to beginners who don't need to add the headache of using less predicatble wood to their list of obstacles to overcome). It may be fine for an experienced woodworker who can understand what they are up against, but not good for a beginner.

That's it. I'm making a pine bass. Carbon fiber reinforcement bars and truss rod SHOULD keep the neck strong. I'll get some of that Select Pine from the HD, and laminate them together for the thru-neck. Then, some 1x8 boards stacked should be good for body wings.

I'ma make a 2 pound bass!!! LOL

The cost of CF is going to be much higher than the small difference in the cost of wood. Nothing wrong with what you propose though, actually it is a great idea. Look at Douglas Fir, very cheap and available at HD or Lowes, much stiffer(outstanding weight to strength for sure). It is soft and may ding a bit more than harder woods, but we realise that(acceptable). Spend some time selecting just the right boards that have great orientation, and let them dry for a spell so you know they are stable. The body or wings won't need near the strength, so Pine would be ok, DF will probably hold screws better. I think Doug Fir is not a substandard tonewood, it is actually pretty outstanding.

This whole high cost of wood debate seems a little silly to me. We are talking about 1 board foot of wood for a neck blank. Hard Rock Maple lumber sells for a whole $5-6 bd. ft. A body blank is going to amount to a whopping 4 board foot worth of wood. There are many woods that will run between $3-5 bd. ft (Alder, Poplar, Ash, Soft Maple, khaya, Sapele, Basswood and so forth....). How much are you going to save vs that $12-20 bit of solid hardwood??? We are talking about $30 or less for wood, and the only compramise is selecting and buying kiln dried clear lumber. Sure you can buy a construction grade pine for .75 cents bd.ft., or low grade ply for about $1 bd. ft., but we are only talking about 5 bd. ft. worth of wood here. I would never recommend a wood that is going to be lesser when you are talking about all of maybe $25 difference at the most for an entire guitars worth of wood(we are talking about the price of a box of strings guys, or a couple of junky cords). Practice on $1 bd. ft. pine what the heck. Select good bits of pine, dry them well and use them for a body, sure as long as you recognise the hardness may be more prone to denting(it will be light though, and pine is very resonant).

Perfectly acceptable wood is cheap for solid bodies, I see no need to look for risky alternatives(especially for beginners). You want to help a beginner save a few bucks, help them find a local hardwood dealer, help them understand what to look for in wood that will give you a more stable instrument, help them understand what proper drying of the wood they use means. This way they won't have to pay the premium to have a dealer do these things for them, or pay high shipping costs.

Rich

[RestorationAD]

Can't wait to see how it goes... there are several lessons to be learned from all this and I think this is a great project.

Lesson One: Cheap Prototypes

Using alternative wood to flesh out ideas is cheaper.

I may kid around but a cheap prototype is a cheap prototype. Sure beats trying out that new body style in expensive wood. So if you can get it to work, I know it will sound __ok__ and the real gret thing is you will have a great template to use for a nice expensive model.

Lesson Two: Tone is the sum of the parts and the crafting?

Maybe we learn this, Maybe not. Tone is the great debate and this project will not end the debate. And I think it is great that it won't. I love reading topics about tone and how things effect other things. And I really hope that the electronics are not the Final Say in the sound of an instrument.

Lesson Three: Talking about this stuff is great.

ummm... whatever... it is a plywood guitar and the ideas behind the experiment are good. And we all gain knowledge from all the experienced guys chiming in on "How things effected their build". We end up with a nice case study so those of us who do not have time to run it gain the knowledge if not the experience.

Guitar building is a great hobby/profession/passion!

[avengers63]

I'll add to the observations here:

I think this is one of the longest threads I've seen on various forums covering various topics which introduces a seemingly radical concept yet not one single person has come remotely close to starting a flame. In fact, it's been just the opposite: everyone has something positive, encouraging, insightful, or otherwise helpful to say.

Bravo, gentlemen. I'm proud of all of you.

[zyonsdream]

There will never be an end to the debate on tone simply because tone is different to every person. I also like that we are three pages in and everyone is sharing their opinions in a positive manner. That’s why I like this forum.

I echo the concerns on using plywood for the neck and I think the only way to do it without it being completely subjected to humidity is to epoxy the hell out of it and then hard coat it. I’m not saying it isn’t possible without epoxy but the added strength won’t hurt and if anyone has ever sanded the paint off of a BCR platinum series guitar you’ll know that they even epoxy’d the bodies before painting them. I’m not really worried about stability with the body. Soft wood is used a lot and with a hardcoat most people never know. Poplar is really soft and I wouldn’t suggest an oil finish on it! As long as there is stability within the neck pocket then there should be no body issues. I’m looking to complete an oil finish on the body just to see if humidity causes a lot of issues with the body itself. Inside the wings will remain raw (just like on a standard semi-hollow.

I’ll find out what grade I’m using in a few hours and then I’ll post it. Just not sure off the top of my head… I just know it’s not furniture grade and it’s not chip board.

[X1TX]

I think building a plywood guitar is okay so long as you know what it is before you start. I have a plywood Vee that plays okay (given that I suck at playing). It might be okay to try out a new body shape. Or maybe just to learn to use the router (but as fryovanni said, it would probably be better to practice with pine). Not sure I'd use plywood to build an instrument I'd use regularly. And yes, a body blank isn't THAT expensive. But the good thing about plywood is that you can find it just about anywhere. And just as a fun "let's see if this works" project, it's okay. Long story short, there are pros and cons for doing this. But the entire reason folks do this as a hobby isn't for logical reasons. It's a 'want to' thing. So if you want to try it, go for it.

But I too am curious to see how this turns out.

[Supernova9]

This is my point exactly. I personally feel that wood makes little difference in the overall “tone” of a SOLID body instrument and the pickups, pots, wiring cables and amps really shape the overall tone of a guitar. But, a lot of people think high dollar manufacturers don’t use low grade wood because it produces lesser quality instruments and not because of the stigma off attaching the “plywood” name to their guitars. So you are basically saying the same thing I am but I’m not going to stick high dollar pickups on. I’m going to go with a middle of the road (no more than $45.00) pickup to make my comparisons from.

High dollar manufacturers don't use low grade wood because it does produce lesser quality instruments. Quality is consistency. Properly dried, instrument quality lumber is more stable than lower grade wood or plywood. It is also easier to carve etc. Those are desirable qualities. I don't deny that pickups, scale length and bridge type have as much if not greater effect on tone as the wood used in construction, but there is a definite effect.

You seem to be intimating that the use of high dollar woods is a conspiracy theory to extract more money from mindless consumers when plywood is just as good. That's a little bit tinfoil hat style isn't it?

My thought is that the saying "You get what you pay for" has survived so many centuries for a reason. It's true.

[zyonsdream]

This is my point exactly. I personally feel that wood makes little difference in the overall “tone” of a SOLID body instrument and the pickups, pots, wiring cables and amps really shape the overall tone of a guitar. But, a lot of people think high dollar manufacturers don’t use low grade wood because it produces lesser quality instruments and not because of the stigma off attaching the “plywood” name to their guitars. So you are basically saying the same thing I am but I’m not going to stick high dollar pickups on. I’m going to go with a middle of the road (no more than $45.00) pickup to make my comparisons from.

High dollar manufacturers don't use low grade wood because it does produce lesser quality instruments. Quality is consistency. Properly dried, instrument quality lumber is more stable than lower grade wood or plywood. It is also easier to carve etc. Those are desirable qualities. I don't deny that pickups, scale length and bridge type have as much if not greater effect on tone as the wood used in construction, but there is a definite effect.

You seem to be intimating that the use of high dollar woods is a conspiracy theory to extract more money from mindless consumers when plywood is just as good. That's a little bit tinfoil hat style isn't it?

My thought is that the saying "You get what you pay for" has survived so many centuries for a reason. It's true.

Well that’s why I’m doing this build…to see if a plywood guitar built by a custom builder can yield a high quality sounding guitar. I’m not saying that manufacturers of high quality instruments only use specific woods as a way to milk customers. I’m saying that consumers are accustomed to seeing “ash” or “mahogany” and less apt to think “plywood, poplar, Basswood” can make a good guitar. If PRS said, this is our new plywood guitar; people would blast it without even trying it or just assume it was a cost cutting measure. So essentially I’m saying that there is a stigma with the consumers around these types of woods and if Fender could still get 1K for a strat and use plywood I’m sure they would but the market wouldn’t sustain it.

Ultimately it comes down to the craftsmanship put into the guitar concerning stability but this will end up coming down to raw tone out of a plywood guitar.

I would agree that a solid wood would be best for a carved top so using pine for this experiment would be reasonable but I wanted to use the worst wood just out of curiosity and pine has been done before and has obviously been proven a success.

[Chonker]

I think Basswood makes great guitars... but then I'm an RG fanboy

[zyonsdream]

it didn't work out too good for BCR with the artist series but the BDSM pickups are junk to begin with.

[zyonsdream]

Well I couldn't get any legible information off the remaining piece of plywood but I figured with all your guys expertise we should be able to figure out the grade. Sorry, I had this plywood lying around for the last year.

Here is a shot of the top while I was voiding the cavities for the hollow wings.

here is a side view. At this point I'm gluing the top on so it's three 3/4 pieces and each peace is 5 plys of wood.

As you can see there are some voids in between the plys so filler on the sides will be a MUST but really, a little bit of wood filler is not bad!

So, we can see that this isn't furniture grade lumber by any means but I'm not 100% sure on how bad it is. I know the full sheet was about $12.00

[X1TX]

High dollar manufacturers don't use low grade wood because it does produce lesser quality instruments. Quality is consistency. Properly dried, instrument quality lumber is more stable than lower grade wood or plywood. It is also easier to carve etc. Those are desirable qualities. I don't deny that pickups, scale length and bridge type have as much if not greater effect on tone as the wood used in construction, but there is a definite effect.

You seem to be intimating that the use of high dollar woods is a conspiracy theory to extract more money from mindless consumers when plywood is just as good. That's a little bit tinfoil hat style isn't it?

My thought is that the saying "You get what you pay for" has survived so many centuries for a reason. It's true.

True. A manufacturer can't produce a quality instrument on a repeatable basis using wood that isn't consistent. That may not hold to the same degree for someone making a 'one off' instrument. How much that does or does not hold, I guess we'll find out when this experiment is done.

[fryovanni]

Here is a bit of research material from the forest products labs(our tax dollars working for us)-link. There is more test data there than I suspect any of us has time and or moneys to collect privately.

Here is a link that gives a bit more info on plywood, and grading-link

Surface grading-link

A link giving info on what makes Marine grade different from common grades of plywood(as well as a note on epoxy)-link

A bit of info from Westsystem epoxy on differences in plywood-link

This may be interesting to some of you also. A lot of great information presented from the aircraft field(they seem to be a little better funded when it comes to gathering information about the use of wood, joints, structural methods and such than us).-link

Thought those might be handy links,

Rich

[avengers63]

Yea... it's pretty easy to see which of us don't have a lot to do at work, huh.

[kpcrash]

Started on my plybass today. Found some pieces of 5-ply lying around. Trying to decide on standard shape or other. Figured since someone's already building a 6 string, what happens for bass as well? The neck I'm planning on using is a maple/rosewood neck that's straight - nothing fancy. I am shaving it down like hell though to make it more "RG" like (sorry, I'm a Wizard fan as well). Top ply actually doesn't look bad and covers the top of the body in one piece. Hmmm.....

[dugg]

I recently finished building a big apple type strat that has 3/4" poplar boards 'butcher blocked' together with a flamed redwood front and poplar neck (!). The guitar is around 5 pounds and has unusually long acoustic sustain, almost twice that of my stock strat. OK, so there are other details. It has three CF rods, (inexpensive hobby store variety) embedded close to the three 'corners' of the neck. It also has a hand made single action truss mounted in the correct fashion, deep in the D and not touching anything other than at each end. The poplar and redwood both came from Homedepot and cost less than 15$ total. Ok, so I put a brazilian rosewood FB on it which is probably worth about $250. Hey, I had it lying around! I've built other guitars before this, but I wanted to try out some crazy stuff, like using poplar for a neck. The outcome was far better than expected. The guitar is in the hands of a proper shredder now, who likes it because it's light and has great tone and sustain.

I think you'll make a fine guitar out of plywood, even the neck. If you're worried about CF costing a lot, try your local hobby store, or some hobby places online. Stewmac and LMI do charge too much. Also, people who makes kites use CF a lot, I bet they'd be a good place to look.

A good thing to remember when thinking about the properties of any material and vibrations is, as an object is made stiffer, mass and internal damping interact less and less. If an object is infinitely stiff, your ear won't know whether it weighs an ounce or a ton. In fact, if an object can't flex, can it be said to be vibrating? Ouch, that hertz!

[zyonsdream]

High dollar manufacturers don't use low grade wood because it does produce lesser quality instruments. Quality is consistency. Properly dried, instrument quality lumber is more stable than lower grade wood or plywood. It is also easier to carve etc. Those are desirable qualities. I don't deny that pickups, scale length and bridge type have as much if not greater effect on tone as the wood used in construction, but there is a definite effect.

You seem to be intimating that the use of high dollar woods is a conspiracy theory to extract more money from mindless consumers when plywood is just as good. That's a little bit tinfoil hat style isn't it?

My thought is that the saying "You get what you pay for" has survived so many centuries for a reason. It's true.

True. A manufacturer can't produce a quality instrument on a repeatable basis using wood that isn't consistent. That may not hold to the same degree for someone making a 'one off' instrument. How much that does or does not hold, I guess we'll find out when this experiment is done.

Sorry but I'd have to disagree with you 100%. If mid price range companies can do it on an assembly line basis then a high end shop could do it without issue. There are a lot of companies making guitars out of plywood right now and they will sound consistent with each other. How stable does a solid body need to when when it's slathered in a ton of epoxy filler and then an acrylic or poly hard coat? No humidity can get in so temperatures shouldn't be able to affect it.

Also, I'm sure we have all built guitars out of the same billet and experienced drastic differences in each one when it came to the way the wood acted. There really is no absolute consistency in a tree!

I'm also glad to see we are getting a plywood base counter part into the mix! This is getting fun.

[X1TX]

True, companies do make plywood instruments. I was just referring to the use of the Home Despot C grade woods. But, I guess this project will tell us a lot.

[Tim37]

heres a question for all of yall if you put the tone debate aside

would you drop 1 2 or 3 grand on a fender or gibson if it was made out of plywood

i wouldn't

now personaly i think its cool that your building a guitar out of plywood and i am amazed that somany people argue agianst it hell if you dipped a phone book in resin and then built a guitar out of it some of the same people would think its the coolest thing ever.

[Supernova9]

Sorry but I'd have to disagree with you 100%. If mid price range companies can do it on an assembly line basis then a high end shop could do it without issue. There are a lot of companies making guitars out of plywood right now and they will sound consistent with each other. How stable does a solid body need to when when it's slathered in a ton of epoxy filler and then an acrylic or poly hard coat? No humidity can get in so temperatures shouldn't be able to affect it.

Also, I'm sure we have all built guitars out of the same billet and experienced drastic differences in each one when it came to the way the wood acted. There really is no absolute consistency in a tree!

I'm also glad to see we are getting a plywood base counter part into the mix! This is getting fun.

Your solution to throw epoxy over everything is expensive and inelegant. If you're going to coat the guitar in that much plastic/glue, why not just build it out of acrylic?

Using stable wood is a more effective method than the one you describe.