My Plywood Build

[kpcrash]

I'd LOVE to build a legit bass out of pine just for that open porous deep tone. Then give it some grain hardener to make it a little more dent resistant. But I'd make the neck with a maple or walnut skunk stripe for structural integrity cuz I know pine wouldn't stay straight and untwisted after tension is applied.

Doing that now...

And isn't it funny that we'll build million dollar mansions using stacks of pinewood and perhaps a few metal rods, but the thought of using the same materials to handle guitar string tension is considered blasphemous? I know the reality of the situation - just think it's kind of funny.

[fryovanni]

Mmm, most definitely Rich. I hear what you're saying, especially when comparing the cost of wood to the rest of the build. I was mainly thumbing my nose at the "expensive/exotic wood is a tonal improvement" crowd

I don't look at exotic woods for their tonal characteristics, more for their structural superiority. I'm sick of rosewood for fretboards because of how filthy they get from players' hands. I want nice exotic woods with tighter grain for fretboards. Yeah, wenge is considered an exotic wood, but it sucks when it gets filthy and the open grain packed with dirt and oil.

I'd LOVE to build a legit bass out of pine just for that open porous deep tone. Then give it some grain hardener to make it a little more dent resistant. But I'd make the neck with a maple or walnut skunk stripe for structural integrity cuz I know pine wouldn't stay straight and untwisted after tension is applied.

I think "Exotic" may be a bit confusing. Rosewood for instance would be an exotic, close grained, extreamly hard and dense compaired with most domestics (in the .8 specific gravity range). I follow what you are saying though about the structural properties(strong, stiff, interlocked grain,and so forth) and hardness of some of the woods considered exotics. Some people call those "super woods", because they have such high strength numbers.

Really though the properties of those woods translate to changes in the way an instrument will sound(nothing magical, no different than if you used steel vs rubber as the difference is really in the properties of the material). Stiffness, weight, and resiliance to keep the material from deforming are sensable things to consider with any material, and they should effect performance. Consideration as to finish and durability makes perfect sense to me also(we want the instrument to last, and perform well in service obviously).

One way or the other it sounds like you have your head in the right place to me. You are looking at real world performance considerations, and trying to choose the material that will best fill the needs as you see them. Good for you

Rich

[Geo]

And isn't it funny that we'll build million dollar mansions using stacks of pinewood and perhaps a few metal rods, but the thought of using the same materials to handle guitar string tension is considered blasphemous? I know the reality of the situation - just think it's kind of funny.

Blasphemous? Psh! I built a guitar with a pine body and a homemade humbucker and it had a lovely, "fragile" tone. Of course, it was my first attempt and it was utterly unplayable, and its tuners are going onto my acoustic...

Pine seems like a good wood for experimental/prototype guitars. The thought even occured to me the other day, could you build an archtop guitar out of pine, just to learn the techniques and so on without spending hundreds on thick wood?

[X1TX]

What a cracking thread. Here they have guitars built from Hemp

Smokin'...........

Reminds me of "fiberpot" from "Up In Smoke"....

Edited August 7, 2008 by X1TX

[fryovanni]

I think people overblow the reaction to using woods like pine. There are honest downsides to pine that are very valid when used for an instrument that you want to last, and it is marginal in terms of strength for a neck(although there are many woods that just don't have the numbers we would prefer for a neck). Then there is grading of what you buy(same as with ANY wood). Most dirt cheap 2x4 stock(lower construction grade) allows for plenty of flaws that we don't want. There is also issues with marginal drying on these low grade pallets of 2x4's. All those are REAL factors that should be considered. If a person wanted an ultra light body(very solid reasons for looking for that in a body), pine could certainly handle the structural load and make for a feather weight body. If they were ok with the hardness and finishing(being realistic, acoustics, archtops, and some semi hollow are regularly made with soundboards and plates that are not much harder. Those instruments just need a little more consideration when handling.). Pine could be a very viable choice, and as a potential tonewood, it is certainly a resonant wood. Along similar lines Douglas fir is a bit heavier, but still light compaired to many hardwoods and has much greater strength numbers(hardness is a step up also). Western Red Cedar, is another wood that is not uncommon and could offer similar features.

Hey, if it is what you are looking for in your design. Screw what someone who does not understand your well thought out plan, and follow your own instincts. You don't need to or shouldn't care about proving something to anyone(that is not a very good reason for doing much of anything, unless you are proving something to yourself). There is a lot of truth in the fact that using some of these lesser used woods requires more understanding and care, but if you are willing to do your dilligence the potential is there. Most of the bad reputation in using lesser woods comes from knuckle headed approaches to using them, or cost being the only justification. Even the most commonly used or sought after woods can be doomed by the right hack.

Rich

[kpcrash]

Here is a proposition to further the experiment. I am wonder what effect, if any, using a hardwood veneer may have - honestly. We all know that there are a MILLION guitars out there with a "flame maple top". Big Deal. Aside from appearance, would a veneer and at what thickness would it have an impact on the structural and/or tonal qualities of a plywood/pine build. Most veneers come in 1/42 or 1/50 inch thickness, but this is for furniture style projects - which given my education in furniture building seems to be the antithesis of guitar making. So far I've found that both typically use a wood base to start from - other than that, everything is up for discussion.

[jaycee]

I think people overblow the reaction to using woods like pine. There are honest downsides to pine that are very valid when used for an instrument that you want to last, and it is marginal in terms of strength for a neck(although there are many woods that just don't have the numbers we would prefer for a neck). Then there is grading of what you buy(same as with ANY wood). Most dirt cheap 2x4 stock(lower construction grade) allows for plenty of flaws that we don't want. There is also issues with marginal drying on these low grade pallets of 2x4's. All those are REAL factors that should be considered. If a person wanted an ultra light body(very solid reasons for looking for that in a body), pine could certainly handle the structural load and make for a feather weight body. If they were ok with the hardness and finishing(being realistic, acoustics, archtops, and some semi hollow are regularly made with soundboards and plates that are not much harder. Those instruments just need a little more consideration when handling.). Pine could be a very viable choice, and as a potential tonewood, it is certainly a resonant wood. Along similar lines Douglas fir is a bit heavier, but still light compaired to many hardwoods and has much greater strength numbers(hardness is a step up also). Western Red Cedar, is another wood that is not uncommon and could offer similar features.

Hey, if it is what you are looking for in your design. Screw what someone who does not understand your well thought out plan, and follow your own instincts. You don't need to or shouldn't care about proving something to anyone(that is not a very good reason for doing much of anything, unless you are proving something to yourself). There is a lot of truth in the fact that using some of these lesser used woods requires more understanding and care, but if you are willing to do your dilligence the potential is there. Most of the bad reputation in using lesser woods comes from knuckle headed approaches to using them, or cost being the only justification. Even the most commonly used or sought after woods can be doomed by the right hack.

Rich

As the Sunday times said about Queen' Sheer heart attack "sheer bl**dy poetry"

[psw]

This is/was such a cool thread, that I thought I'd bump it back up as I had been thinking about such a build again recently while on holiday and came back to do some research to find this.

I know that KP's bass was completed and recently put into GOTM (hooray) but what happened with zyons guitar that started it all?

...

Anyway...I was down at the surf coast...I saw a few surfboard shapers and was noting how there were a lot of similarities in the way things developed and the making and design...in attitude, if not materials and such. I also saw a lot of limestone formations with distinctive layers weathered into unusual forms that had a beautiful aesthetic quality to their curves with the horizontal layers cutting through them...plus perhaps I had too much time to think!

...

So...aesthetically, if plywood were radically carved to reveal the layers...the sides can look kind of cool as was noted by both builders...

But I find the parts carved to be very attractive...but perhaps not go far enough!

There was only a touch of it on Kp's arm contour there...but you could go a lot further all over the guitar with far greater round overs, carving or various shaping to reveal even more to feature this effect.

My sustainer strat guitar from way back happened to be a mix of stripboard within and 3 ply top and back...once the crappy sunburst was removed...it actually did have some interesting "grain patterns" in it...

Again, the effect is largely in that arm contour, even more with the belly carve on the back. This guitar was also extensively hollowed out and is extremely light...yet stood the test of time...

...

The discussion on necks was interesting and had me thinking of taking it further. There was disucssion of reinfocing the neck with carbon fibre for instance and I got to thinking...maybe a CF mat and epoxy between the plywood layers on glue up would provide an exceptionally stiff and solid composite material.

The extension of this is that perhaps the entire guitar could be made from one continuous layered piece and carved down to shape from headstock to tail. This eliminates things like neck joints (as long as no neck angle is required I guess) and could make an interesting form very easy to construct with templates and a router table....

You would still require quality ply for something like this, possibly marine grade...it appeals to my manufacturing and process thinking...but I think that there could be some very interesting aesthetic effects possible with more radiacal carving and the alternate grains also produce a very dimensionally stable material. Also, with a trend towards hollowing out guitars...how much of tone wood is really heard, it's more the air that's attractive...and remember, a 355 has a ply top effectively and a much sought after and model for this trend towards chambered guitars...why not the whole thing out of ply!

...

Anyway...some thoughts that are milling about and a very cool thread that many might have missed like I did the first time around...

pete

P.S. Still like to know what happened to zyons guitar in the end...