Hybrid Acoustic/electric Idea

[fryovanni]

It is cool to read all these comments. Since most of what is being discussed is really hard to quantify, and so very subjective. One of those subjects with few absolute goals, and if you honestly want to understand an aspect of the performance you have to evaluate so many indirect variables(many of which are not static). I guess those unknows and the persuit of some sense of control over them is what makes building so fun.

I recall something I read in a post by Rick Turner that really seemed like an interesting thought or perspective. He was talking about electrics and how minor changes in the way the signal is picked up are magnified because of the amplification(the electric is a much more sensitive system than an acoustic instruments). I think he said it was something akin to looking through a magnifying glass, not like looking through a window. Maybe, if that thinking is on the right track. The changes to an electrics system can be more subtle and produce significant changes. I think the logic seems to explain why it takes some radical changes in an acoustic design to make significant changes in performance. Just a thought that seemed to make sense to me.

[Southbound]

Now, I really don't like the sound of acoustic preamp systems. They just don't really sound like acoustic guitars anymore. I mean, sure, they're helpful live, but I still like the sound of a miked guitar better. Just more natural sounding.

Hmmm....I wonder if this exists? Instead of a pickup integrated into the guitar, some kind of removable rig that positions a mike (or mikes) to capture the guitar's sound. You'd want it not to interfere with strumming/picking, obviously. And it should be positionable to accommodate the individual guitar.

I agree a miked acoustic is much nicer than a piezo...then there's the difference between the way it's miked that also maes a big difference. Close miked (using a Sure SM57 or something along those lines) is no way near as good (or as you say natural sounding) as a studio mic set away from the guitar a foot or so. A good studio mic does it's best to act exactly like your ear does. That's why it sounds more "natural". Here in lies the problem.

When you listen to an acoustic instrument you're hearing waves of different frequencies and amplitudes reaching you ears at different times which creates the experience. The proximity of your ear (or the mike in this case the mic) to the sounds makes a big difference. If you listen to an acoustic from any closer than a foot it doesn't sound as sweet.

So even of you manage to get a really beautiful acoustic sound from your hybrib, if you're too close to the action you can't hope to use a mic (an electronic ear) to capture the "natural" sound. You simply can't grab all the tones and over tones in the right configuaration to make it sound like it would if you were a foot away from it. That's why even in an acoustic guitar you end up having to simulate (or maybe a better way of putting it is "manipulate") the sound to make it more "natural".

It's definitely a tricky problem to overcome.

[kpcrash]

Very fascinating thread!

the hybrid concept is just that...neither and electric or an acoustic guitar

Never a truer statement Pete.

Nothing else really to say - just watching this thread closely as again, I find it extremely interesting.

[dpm99]

Avengers,

Are you planning on running everything into an electric amp, or will you use an A/B box to run acoustic sounds into something else? The answer to that question will likely help you answer a lot of others.

-D

[erikbojerik]

THE major anticipated pitfall is this - to get acoustic tone, you need the top to vibrate and move air. So you need a hollow box, which is apparently what you're trying to stay away from.

The only other way to go is to get a piezo to vibrate in some way, and do something with that - but that is not "acoustic tone" sensu stricto.

[avengers63]

Are you planning on running everything into an electric amp, or will you use an A/B box to run acoustic sounds into something else? The answer to that question will likely help you answer a lot of others.

This would all be run into a normal electric guitar amp.

THE major anticipated pitfall is this - to get acoustic tone, you need the top to vibrate and move air. So you need a hollow box, which is apparently what you're trying to stay away from.

Originally, I wasn't going to shy away from it entirely. I was willing to attempt to brace the top if need be, but not the back & sides. After discussion, it became apparent that I don't have the knowledge to do that, so it needed to be abandoned.

I find it extremely interesting.

I'm getting off on the discussion as well. It all came about during idle conversation at work with another player. Through the talk with him, the inspiration hit me.

...are (you) thinking of making these things to sell...

Oh no. No way. If, and that's a big if, I go through with this, it'd be for me and me alone.

[fryovanni]

I also forgot to add that I don't think you should think building a braced instrument (and acoustic instrument) is beyond your ability. I am positive you are more than capable of doing anything you set your mind to. There are some different skills and concepts, but you would pick it up.

[Mickguard]

I also forgot to add that I don't think you should think building a braced instrument (and acoustic instrument) is beyond your ability. I am positive you are more than capable of doing anything you set your mind to. There are some different skills and concepts, but you would pick it up.

At this point, I've pretty much converted to playing only semis -- I like the sound, my back and shoulders like the lighter weight (current fave is a Hofner Verythin), and the wider body is more comfortable for me both sitting and standing. I also like the feedback bloom I get off of semis, that doesn't happen from a solidbody.

So if I want to continue building, I'm going to have to learn at least archtop construction techniques. Which means I'd end up learning acoustic building techniques, since any semi I'd build would have the bent sides like an acoustic.

Fortunately, my guitar teacher has become quite the luthier these days, he's promised to help me when I'm ready. I'd really like to experiment with alternative body shapes, both for a semi and an acoustic.

[avengers63]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Fry. I appreciate the support. Maybe I'll start looking into top bracing and see what I can come up with. I'm still thinking a hollowed out solid-body with an acoustic/braced top. Nothing can happen until next year anyway - there's way too much to work on right now that needs finishing up to start up something new.

[avengers63]

I've been thinking about this discussion and the information that came from it. I've been thinking as well about the possibilities of incorporating both acoustic and electric elements into the same instrument while not making a true semi-. I got to thinking about this from a $3.00 wood bender someone posted the link to a couple weeks ago.

So here's what I'm thinking about now....

Construct a frame from solid wood. Make it in the range of 1/2" wide & thick, but only a frame. This is done for both top & bottom. Then create vertical braces of the same thickness spaced periodically around the perimeter. I'd guess the placement would have to be determined by the greatest structural need - it's more engineering than I'm getting into right now. Anyway, you'd end up with a thick hollow frame on which you can make a hybrid.

Make the top & bottom 1/8"-3/16" stock. Just thick enough to get some vibrations, but not so thin they'd need extra bracing. It'd also need to be thick enough to bear the pull of the bridge, which would of course be strengthened by an additional block glued inside. Considering the acoustic generates it's volume from the vibrations of the top, the back could even be 1/4" stock for extra strength.

Around the sides would be thin acoustic stock bent to shape and glued onto the frame. Of course, you'd want to bind the top & bottom, but that's neither here nor there at this point.

With this, one might be able to get a 2.5"-3" thick guitar with a lot of acoustic qualities, but still get a lot of the qualities of an electric. You'd still have the neck pup either floating or mounted above the soundhole, and have a side-mounted acoustic system as well.

Thoughts & feedback?

[anderekel]

What about an arched top? From my little bit of understanding that would be stronger and still do what you're lookin' for. As for the pickup thing, you could go with a floating one like you said, otherwise making the neck a little longer and mounting it to that extra bit seems like a good idea too.

[avengers63]

I wouldn't be able to bend the top for an arch, so it'd have to be a carve. Also, as discussed earlier, archtops still require some kind of bracing, which I'm trying to avoid. It's faitly likely that the bracing would be altered by the frame.

[anderekel]

Ok, I was thinkin' maybe something like what David Myka does. (man, I seem to be on a myka kick lately, using his wiring idea and whatnot lol)

[avengers63]

Buddy, if I could do half of what he does, I wouldn't be discussing the possibilities... I'd be doing it.

[GGW]

This is a topic I've been interested in as well. My idea is not to necesarily get either a full electric or acoustic sound but to explore a spectrum in between. On my last electric build, I made a body about two inches thick with the sides carved out of a solid piece. I've decided, as was already stated, that this was a big waste of wood and was quite hard to do. I've since been finishing up my first acoustic and have struggled through the bending and will do the sides like this from now on. For the electric, I made the top thicker (about 4mm) and of bulbinga with no bracing. I put two electric pickups on and a sound hole up on the top bout. Under the bridge area I left a block of wood to mount an electric bridge, but it does not go to the back. My theory was to get some top vibration and to have a sound hole to relieve the internal air presure. I like the way it turned out. It is fairly jazz sounding on the neck minihumbucker and is probably more towards the electric side of the spectrum.

What I find is, that most of the common magnetic pickups will sound like an electric guitar. A very interesting pickup though is the Dean Markely sound hole pickups. I've had one in an acoustic and to me it sounds better than peizos I've heard. These pickups are voiced for bronze strings . I keep asking why there doesn't seem to be a pickup like this in the form of an electric guitar magnetic pickup. If you had bronze strings on a semi hollow guitar and a pickup like that I'm sure it would be close to an acoustic sound. One of those at the bridge and a big snarly humbucker at the bridge might do it.

[Mike Herr]

I wouldn't be able to bend the top for an arch, so it'd have to be a carve. Also, as discussed earlier, archtops still require some kind of bracing, which I'm trying to avoid. It's faitly likely that the bracing would be altered by the frame.

Without bracing it won't vibrate like a typical flat-top acoustic or archtop, because you will need a much heavier top w/o bracing.

If you had bronze strings on a semi hollow guitar and a pickup like that I'm sure it would be close to an acoustic sound.

When I switched to acoustic strings, I could get my Guild Archtop (built like an acoustic-->fully hollow) to sound very similar to an acoustic plugged in.

[Myka Guitars]

avengers63, got your PM.

These hybrid guitars are something that I love to explore. In fact my first exploration brought my Dragonfly into being. This guitar is essentially an electric guitar that has a thinner arched top. There is bracing on the top because I wanted it to be as thin as I could get it for it's acoustic tones. There is a lot of debate over this types of guitar's ability to produce acoustic tones but it happens. It's not anything like a Martin D-28 but that was never my intention. I built this guitar and acoustically it has a very loud and strong archtop voice. And this is a guitar that has a 3/8" back and 1/2"-5/8" sides all routed from a 1-1/2" piece of mahogany. The top is carved very thin (1/4" in the center to 1/8" near the edge) and this guitar resonates amazingly well and will keep up in an acoustic mix as a lead and chord player unplugged.

For a guitar like this I didn't expect the sides to do much at all. The back however is another story altogether. There is ahuge difference when the guitar back is allowed to freely vibrate (by holding it away from your body when playing it). I put a K&K Pure Archtop pickup in this one that sounds really nice and I was pleasantly surprised when I placed half of another K&K pickup in the center of the back. It really opened up the higher registers and produced an extremely detailed and 3-dimensional sound compared to just the archtop pickup (placed under the feet of the bridge near the parallel braces).

If I were going to build a guitar with a thicker top without bracing I might try a 1/4" or thicker spruce top on a frame or a chambered body. Make it thick enough to not distort from string tension and I bet it would have a decent voice. I would not expect anything like a braced or carved thinner top but I bet it would work if you put some acoustic pickups in it.

The best thing to do is try it. You don't even have to get fancy. Check out these little instruments that I make for a children's museum in Western New York: dan doans. I make a bunch because the kids destroy them and so each batch I test out a new construction idea. They are cheap (all scrap) and easy to make and would answer so many of your questions.

~David

[avengers63]

This is very encouraging... to hear that something similar has been done and the results that I was hoping for were achieved. Thank you very much for the input.

It would seem that bending the sides and putting it on a frame are un-necessary. Of course, doing that would most likely enhance the effect, but would most likely be purely cosmetic.

Ya know - being unemployed is really such a tease. I have all the time in the world now to put in a ton of time on a project like this, but I don't have the disposable income for raw materials. Maybe if an extremely generous fellow PGer were to offer me a back & side set at a really great price, I could run with this idea.