Zeb_hendrix Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) Hey. I'd like to finish my guitar an Opaque bright white colour with Glossy top coats. I'm trying to find about some different types of waterbased lacquer but just googling it I only get results for Stewmacs Colortone stuff. This stuff seems good for me but by the time I buy the Lacquer, white pigment, sanding sealer and grain filler thats adds up to like 70 bucks and then 80 bucks postage. Thats a bit expensive for me. Does anyone know of any other cheaper options I could take but still using a waterbased lacquer, like some stuff I could get at a local hardware store or paint shop. And Im going to be getting spraying gear so nothing thats sprayed from a can. Thanks Zeb. Edited January 4, 2009 by Zeb_hendrix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 KTM-9 + ZPoxy = $45 shipped (for a quart of KTM). If you don't have large pores, skip the ZPoxy, go to the hardware store and get a can of shellac. It's also a sanding sealer without the soap. Locally $10 quart. As for the white, keep it simple as well, Faskolor/Auto-Air through an airbrush will work great. 10-12 coats of KTM and you'll have gloss and enough material leftover to probably do 3 (or more) guitars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenspoke Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Hey. I'd like to finish my guitar an Opaque bright white colour with Glossy top coats. I'm trying to find about some different types of waterbased lacquer but just googling it I only get results for Stewmacs Colortone stuff. This stuff seems good for me but by the time I buy the Lacquer, white pigment, sanding sealer and grain filler thats adds up to like 70 bucks and then 80 bucks postage. Thats a bit expensive for me. Does anyone know of any other cheaper options I could take but still using a waterbased lacquer, like some stuff I could get at a local hardware store or paint shop. And Im going to be getting spraying gear so nothing thats sprayed from a can. Thanks Zeb. SM Colortone is just Target Coating brand of Lacquer re branded. They are cheaper buying direct and they were having a 25% off sale on all the stuff you need. Which is about half off what SM charges. $17 a quart right now. They also sell pigment but you may find it cheaper some where else. Target Coatings (ultima WB Lacquer) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenspoke Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 The Target Coating sale ends on the 10th of January 2009. Just got an email. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 I strongly recommend LMIIs KTM-9. It is way better than stewmacs/Target Coatings water based finish. Dry harder and without any of the blueish tint that the SM/TC finish have. I have tried them both on numerous guitars so I have plenty of experience. KTM-9 is the one to get. The old one that SM sold, Crystalac, was also much better than their current brand. Try to find that and see what price it has. Found their home page but it seems that it is only available direct from them. Give them a call and let us know what the current price level of their product are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDub Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 I just finished one using Targets new Emtech 6000 water-based laquer. It's similar to USL, but Target says it has a slipperier feel. Thought that sounded ok, so I tried it out. It's still curing now, so don't know what the end result will be. So far it looks great and has no bluish tint that some people have seen. I actually got Stew Macs black pigment and it worked like a charm for the back and sides. The top is quilt Maple with grey dye, aplied directly to the wood, then clear over it. Can't recommend Target enough. The forum over there is good, and a rep from the company will usually answer any questions you have pretty quickly. By this weekend I hope to have this one wet sanded and polished. I'll be sure to post how it goes. One twist though, I applied this finish with a brush. You can use Targets reducer to make their spray laquers suitable for brushing, and it seemed to have worked great for me. If your carefull to not go over the same spots with the brush, it flows out prety well. There are a few brush marks, but I'm hopeing when I wet sand to get them level. I leveled after the first 6 coats I put on and it went well, so I think I should be good. My condo just doesn't have anywhere to set up for spraying, so I thought I'd try this method out, because I'm not crazy about tru-oil or wipe on poly. I'll report back this weekend after I finish up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGW Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Very nice looking job RDub. I cannot spray either and would like to try brushing water based lacquer. I'm in Canada and close to a supplier of the USL . Do you notice any color cast on the white binding? I was going to tint white and would think the blue cast would be good. I was hesitant when I read "a subtle amber color" in the description of the USL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sami Ghouri Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 i brushed Minwax Polycryllic waterbased clear on my first build, but i was a complete n00b at brushing so i had many mistakes (i was drooling while looking at RDub's LP which seems almost perfect without even wetsanding!) the stuff didn't brush easily (then again, this might be due to my n00bness) but it dried pretty clear without a blue tint. (runs looked a tiny bit yellow but were fixed while wetsanding). Takes a long time to cure though. SERIOUSLY RDub! wth is that? i'm gonna go jump out of my bedroom window now (14th floor) for my brushing skills are completely worthless! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDub Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 NO, I don't see any tint what so ever in the finish over the bindings. One tip I have for brushing is to use a good brush. I got mine from Target whne I ordered the laquer. you need really fine natural(I believe) bistle. Hold the brush almost vertical to the piece, and only use the very tip of the brush. Seemed to have worked for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenspoke Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 One other factor here is time, most Water Based products have been modified in the past few years for additional carity, burn-in and hardness. New products are also available outside of the SM, LMI circle as RDub has found out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb_hendrix Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) KTM-9 + ZPoxy = $45 shipped (for a quart of KTM). If you don't have large pores, skip the ZPoxy, go to the hardware store and get a can of shellac. It's also a sanding sealer without the soap. Locally $10 quart. As for the white, keep it simple as well, Faskolor/Auto-Air through an airbrush will work great. 10-12 coats of KTM and you'll have gloss and enough material leftover to probably do 3 (or more) guitars. What is the difference between using the Zpoxy as a filler and the System 3 Epoxy filler?, on LMII they suggest using the Epoxy stuff. And using Epoxy to fill the pores of the wood Im assuming that would mean I dont have to fill the grain and use a sanding sealer. Oh, Just read that they cant ship this epoxy out of the USA so are there any alternatives. And this Faskolor stuff, Its not a pigment is it. And how many bottles should I buy. They come in 2 ounces would two bottles be enough. Edited January 8, 2009 by Zeb_hendrix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Zpoxy/System 3 = difference in preference. There are several on here that use System 3. Faskolor is water-based airbrush paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb_hendrix Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 But can Faskolour also be sprayed with a regular spray gun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I know that RDub said: NO, I don't see any tint what so ever in the finish over the bindings. That page from Wood Essence describing the USL said: Subtle amber color So even though it doesn't show any bluishness (is that a word) it will give white bindings an aged/golden appearance. That might be fine for some, even desirable but it is not suitable for top coats on a white guitar or something similar. Just something to be aware of... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 But can Faskolour also be sprayed with a regular spray gun? I run it through my HVLP 1.0 mm detail gun frequently. Set the pressure between 20-25 and turn the flow control down a bit. It is heavier than KTM and if you use any of the colors containing sparkles, you may desire thinning it with water, but only SLIGHTLY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDub Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I know that RDub said: NO, I don't see any tint what so ever in the finish over the bindings. That page from Wood Essence describing the USL said: Subtle amber color So even though it doesn't show any bluishness (is that a word) it will give white bindings an aged/golden appearance. That might be fine for some, even desirable but it is not suitable for top coats on a white guitar or something similar. Just something to be aware of... I'm using Targets new Emtech series, and I don't see and coloration at all. The white bindings are just as white as before any finish went on them. Pretty sure Targets site claims it to be water clear. On another note, I tried to level yesterday, and sanded through in a couple of spots. I guess with the brush, you need more than 6 oats of clear over the color coats. So, It'll be at least another week for me to get this one done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb_hendrix Posted January 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 And when using Zpoxy will I need to thicken it with Silica Thickener like with the Epoxy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 I've never thickened it - never really needed to. Not sure how others feel about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDub Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 I used to use Z-poxy straight from the bottle, mixed 50/50 by eye and never had trouble. I say used to, because this build will be my last with it. After sanding it back on this one I developed an itchy rash on my face and neck(the only exposed skin) I've seen over on the OLF, someone with a severe reaction to the epoxy, and think I'll stop using it and hopefully avoid a more severe allergic reaction in the future. From what I understan, epoxy is a sensitizer, and can cause allergic reactions in a large nimber of people. It also might not bother you the first 100 times, but then it can hit severely the next time you use it. Since I had the rash, I think better safe than sorry. I've used it one 3 builds, and no probs at all on the first 2. Just wanted to let people know, to wear a mask and watch for signs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb_hendrix Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 So instead of Zpoxy could I use a Water base grain filler and water base sanding sealer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syxxstring Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 (edited) I talked to Craig Kennedy recently, owner of Autoair/Createx they make Fascolor for Parma. Here's the deal, Fascolor used to be the exact same stuff as autoair. But as they have improved autoair a ton in the last few years for tip dry and flow etc... They have not at Parma's request improved the Fascolor. Buy Autoair or Createx as long as its fresh its much better paint, much. The labels have changed, I can't remember how though. If you buy from Coast Airbrush they only have the new stuff. I spray it all the time through big guns or my detail guns as do several custom painters. I would check before using a lacquer over it though with Autoair, it is formulated and tested for an automotive urethane system. The difference being uro's will have a thinner film build and greater elasticity than lacquer if applied correctly. These were done with autoair: and and and this Ignore the solvent pop. I tried a can of alsa's killer cans clear and the very last pass the can went dry and.... Edited January 27, 2009 by syxxstring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb_hendrix Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) Would 4oz of Faskolour/Autoair be enough to paint one smallish guitar body? Edited February 9, 2009 by Zeb_hendrix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Should be - depends on how you spray though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syxxstring Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Reduced 4oz shoudl be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. pierce Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I guess I don't frequent the finishing chat forum enough. Forgot about this thread! I recently posted a thread (here) asking about getting an Inca Silver/Firemist silver type finish with waterborne lacquers. It looks like the Auto-Air/Faskolor may be the way to go from some of the info you folks are posting here. Neither of these companies seem to make clear coats, however. Have any of you had success with top-coating these colors with KTM-9 or something similar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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