Tung Oil Vs Tru-oil - Finish Tips Needed.

[troyw]

Hello All,

I'm doing my first build with a Carvin BN maple neck and a Swamp ash strat body from B. Hefner.

I want to oil the entire guitar and have been reading so much info on both Tung and tru-oil that I have info overload!

Here is what I have in my mind. The neck will stay the natural maple and oiled. For the Ash body, I want to use Black aniline dye using a first application to "pop" the grain. Then sand it back and add a Lt. black wash over the whole thing...kind of a "ghosty" look. Then I want to oil the body for a nice natural finish.

A few questions...

1. Is either oil better for my project? I also want it to be as durable and moisture resistant as possible. From what I've read, it looks like the big difference is that the Tung soaks into the wood where the tru-oil lays on top. It also seems like the tru-oil has a tendency to gloss. Will either resist sweat and "contact wear" better than the other? I especially concerned about the body since they usually take a bit more abuse than the neck.

2. As mentioned i want to color the body with water based dyes. Is this my first step? Also what type of prep do I need to do to the ash? I've been reading about fillers and sealers. Do these go on before the dye and, if so, will the color be excepted the same? What is best to use as sealers or fillers if I need to go that route? The neck seems extremely smooth and hard so I'm probably good there but I know the ash is to be grainier with more pores to worry about.

3. If I decide I like to RAW look and the more natural grain do I just go from Dye to Oil?

I'm really hoping for some help on this as it's my first build and hopefully you guys can save me some time or mistakes that are going to be a PITA! Any feed back and tips on this project would be really helpful. Links to good tutorials and tips are welcome too.

Thanks in advance!

Troy

Edited January 21, 2009 by troyw

[ToddW]

Hi Troy,

If answers are slow in coming, it's because the tru oil vs tung has been discussed dozens of times, so you should do a search. But very briefly:

Tru-oil is polymerized and will actually harden to a fairly protective coat, tung oil won't. Both will sink in.

Also, there's a difference between a true tung oil, and lots of the tung oil finishes. Most of the "tung oil" finishes are an oil/varnish mix. They do harden and are protective. I have no experience with tung oil or oil/varnish mixes, and since you're new to this, I'd rec'd going with tru-oil for lots of reasons. It's easy to use, very safe, and pretty protective. After all, it's a gun stock finish, hunters drag their rifles through the woods all the time.

As to dying the body, I don't know if using an aniline dye on ash is a good idea or not. Ash is a pretty open pore/grain wood, so you might be better off using a stain since a dye might look muddy. Here: Didn't read this, but you should http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Mat...ut.aspx?id=2954

Good luck,

Todd

[Rick500]

I've used both Tru-oil and "tung oil finish" (not pure tung oil, which would take practically forever to dry).

In my experience, Tru-oil builds up better than tung oil finish (I used Minwax Tung Oil Finish), and results in a slightly harder finish.

Tru-oil can be built up and buffed to a higher gloss.

If I wanted the texture/feel of the grain to come through best, I'd probably use a tung oil finish. For more gloss and a bit harder finish, Tru-oil.

[low end fuzz]

i love real chinese tung oil;

it feels great smells awesome and did i mention feels great;

but i used to use it and will prolly never again (on an instrument) because of what you said ;the drying time;

the last time i used it was on a wooden tailpiece, months ago; it still hasnt lost its smell!

[ToddW]

Rick,

Have you used the tung oil finish on ash? And if so, did you pore fill first.

[RDub]

I used analine dye to do a burst on a curly redwood top on my Tele. In testing I found that tru=oil went over the more heavily dyed ares alot better if I put a couple coats of shellac on first. If I didn't use the shellac, the Tru-oil seemed to soak into the heavily dyed areas. I would eventually get it built up nice and shiny there, but when I used the shellac first, it went much quicker.

As to the Tung oil question, sorry, never used it.

Hope that helps a lttle.

[Rick500]

Yes, I have used tung oil finish on ash. I didn't grain fill, but that's because I wanted to texture of the ash to come through. If you want a smooth surface, you can grain fill before applying the tung oil finish.

another pic

Edited January 22, 2009 by Rick500
Added pics

[ihocky2]

I have no experience with tung oil finishes, only pure tung oil. I would stay away from it for a body, especially if you are concerned with wear. It has poor wear protection, needs to be re-coated at least once a year, maybe twice depending on how much you play. It has very little resistance to moisture, so sweat is a problem. And I am not really sure of the results over dye. I think in time you would find the dye bleeding out. I would stay with the tru-oil or a tung oil finish for the body.

[troyw]

Yeah, I'm slowing learning that Tru-oil is probably the better bet for the body especially. My only concern is that I don't want shine...I want a dull/satiny finish. I've been told though that I can take care of that with some steel wool after the final coat. The other thing is the dye...I'm also hearing here and other forums that water based dye on ash might not be as good an idea as a pigment or oil based stain. With these types of stains, can I still use the same technique of doing a first application and sanding it back to enhance the grain pattern? I want to get the grain a nice dark black and then sand it back and go over it again with a more translucent black or black/red tint.

Thanks to all who chimed in here...keep it coming this is good stuff...

Edited January 22, 2009 by troyw

[Rick500]

No experience with any dyes or stains with Tru-oil, but I have used oil-based stain (tung-oil based stain...Woodburst, which is no longer manufactured) with tung oil finish. (See pics above.)

[ToddW]

Might be time to grab an old baseball bat and experiment If the stain, sand, stain works on the bat, you'll have a matching bat and guitar combo.

Edited January 22, 2009 by ToddW

[troyw]

Might be time to grab an old baseball bat and experiment If the stain, sand, stain works on the bat, you'll have a matching bat and guitar combo.

Not a bad idea....you just "hit it out of the park" arrr arrr!

Edited January 22, 2009 by troyw

[troyw]

I got the oil! Went with the Tru-oil....now i just need to figure out what the best method of coloring is. Since aniline isn't the popular choice for ash, I guess I'll have to use an oil based stain. My thoughts are this

stain black to pop the grain and sand back

apply the color coat of lighter transparent black

apply the oil.

Or would it be better to

pop the grain

oil with color such as trans tint mixed in for a few coats

finish with clear oil.

Anyhow, I've got my oil...so we can end the tung VS tru debate...now I just need thoughts on color methods that will work good with ash and oil.

Thanks to all!

Edited January 23, 2009 by troyw

[ToddW]

I think you can use an oil or a water based stain. Some oil based stains have noxious fumes, so you'll need ventilation. On the plus side, they don't dry nearly as fast. If you do go water based, dampen the wood first so you don't have to wipe quite as fast.

[troyw]

I think you can use an oil or a water based stain. Some oil based stains have noxious fumes, so you'll need ventilation. On the plus side, they don't dry nearly as fast. If you do go water based, dampen the wood first so you don't have to wipe quite as fast.

Hey Todd! (That was my brothers name too - ToddW) From what everyone has said here and other places, Waterbased stain isn't a good choice for ash. based on what I want to do (original post) what do you think? I've been told it will get blotchy on the ash - i know about soaking down the wood first and thought that would help with streaks and blotches but I'm not getting feedback that would indicate that so far.

[ToddW]

Us ToddW's are a dime a dozen, ask anyone

I've never stained ash, but what your saying sounds logical. You should read this:

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...=38646&st=0

[doug]

Dye on woods such as ash can be applied via spray gun with excellent results. You can precisely control the amount applied to the surface and blotches are eliminated. For wiping, if the surface is wet when you start, the results may be a more even (less blotches) coloration. Blotching can also be mitigated if multiple applications are used. However, be sure prior applications are completely dry.

I always enjoy the "tung oil" debate.... After 30 years experience with it myself, it's good to hear the perspective others share. :o) FWIW- My preference for durability are tung oil blends.

Keep in mind that tung oils in general are intended to soak into the wood fibers and harden within. In order to develop its surface resilience the fibers must remain exposed to accept it.

[troyw]

Us ToddW's are a dime a dozen, ask anyone

I've never stained ash, but what your saying sounds logical. You should read this:

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...=38646&st=0

Hey Todd - thanks for the link...I too a look but it looks like he ran into the exact problem I'm trying to avoid. Uneven finish on the second color. Guess I'll continue my search for a work around or a good method.

[troyw]

Dye on woods such as ash can be applied via spray gun with excellent results. You can precisely control the amount applied to the surface and blotches are eliminated. For wiping, if the surface is wet when you start, the results may be a more even (less blotches) coloration. Blotching can also be mitigated if multiple applications are used. However, be sure prior applications are completely dry.

I always enjoy the "tung oil" debate.... After 30 years experience with it myself, it's good to hear the perspective others share. :o) FWIW- My preference for durability are tung oil blends.

Hi Doug - thanks for the response.

This was my original intention was to use waterbased dye and wetting the wood really well before doing the "color coat" (after popping the grain with black) Here is the video I saw that inspired that thought: http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Ski...e.aspx?id=30182 I know that he's working with maple which is a totally different wood than what i'm going to be working with.

I'm getting a lot of feedback saying this isn't the way to go with ash though. I don't have any spray equipment so I'm stuck with applying whatever I use by hand. Have you used this method with ash and, if so, did you take any additional step to insure that the color would go on evenly?

BTW - I went with the tru-oil for the finish figuring it could take a little more abuse.

[doug]

Ash has very big grain openings, and dye will run down inside. Also, the softer part of the board sop it up like a sponge. The best thing to to is use a cloth that is as a dry as possible to keep excess from soaking in. It might require several more treatments, but it won't grab as much.

Remember dye will only get as dark as your mixture intensity.

-Doug

[ToddW]

Hi Doug,

If you look back in the thread, you see he was going to use stain, not dye, and an oil based one so he would avoid some of the absorbtion issue and also have plenty of time to wipe before it dries.

-Todd

[troyw]

The best thing to to is use a cloth that is as a dry as possible to keep excess from soaking in. It might require several more treatments, but it won't grab as much.

Sorry - do you mean that once I wet the cloth or pad, to blot out most of the liquid and then apply? Do I need to do this with the first coat of black to darken the grain as well?

In the video I mentioned, he didn't wet the wood until after popping the grain, which is why I ask. I'm assuming this is because he sanded most of it back. Am I off here?

Edited January 23, 2009 by troyw

[troyw]

Hi Doug,

If you look back in the thread, you see he was going to use stain, not dye, and an oil based one so he would avoid some of the absorbtion issue and also have plenty of time to wipe before it dries.

-Todd

Todd, you're right but that was only because i heard that dye wouldn't work...since Doug seems to have had some luck with dye and ash, I was just picking his brain a bit....I'm just trying to figure out the best way to get a similar result to the video I posted with James Condino. (see link above)

[ToddW]

OK, I looked at the link, and now I understand where the confusion is coming from. I've seen that video before, it's even been linked to in several threads here. You need to understand that here is a difference between figure and grain.

With your ash, you have a grain pattern that you want to accentuate. A pigment stain will settle into the grain make it stand out.

With the Maple James Condino is working on, it's figure, but it's not grain figure. If you look, you'll actually see that the figure is perpendicular to the grain. Normally if you dye maple, it can look blotchy. But with the maple he's got, the fibers are oriented so that the variations that can make dyed maple look blotchy, are more organized. That means the blotchy pattern you normally try to avoid, actually looks good because it's organized into tiger stripes. You'll also notice that you don't see the grain much after he dyes it.

You probably don't have flame or quilted ash, and I don't actually know if there's such a thing as flamed or quilted ash. So the only blotchyness you'll get will probalby be just that, blotchy. And, it won't accentuate the grain, it will obscure it. Stain should accentuate the grain better than dye, and that's probably why most people recommended it to you.

Best,

Todd

PS) re-iterating, I haven't worked with ash, I'm going by what I've read in Flexner and my woodworking magazines.

Edited January 24, 2009 by ToddW

[troyw]

With your ash, you have a grain pattern that you want to accentuate. A pigment stain will settle into the grain make it stand out.

With the Maple James Condino is working on, it's figure, but it's not grain figure. If you look, you'll actually see that the figure is perpendicular to the grain. Normally if you dye maple, it can look blotchy. But with the maple he's got, the fibers are oriented so that the variations that can make dyed maple look blotchy, are more organized. That means the blotchy pattern you normally try to avoid, actually looks good because it's organized into tiger stripes. You'll also notice that you don't see the grain much after he dyes it.

You probably don't have flame or quilted ash, and I don't actually know if there's such a thing as flamed or quilted ash. So the only blotchyness you'll get will probalby be just that, blotchy. And, it won't accentuate the grain, it will obscure it. Stain should accentuate the grain better than dye, and that's probably why most people recommended it to you.

PS) re-iterating, I haven't worked with ash, I'm going by what I've read in Flexner and my woodworking magazines.

Thanks Todd - I've been reading some articles by Flexner too. Funny thing is that I was reading one last night about "battling blotching" (Aug 28th 2007) and he says that ash doesn't tend to blotch. Which is the opposite of what most people have told me in forums.

"In woods such as pine, spruce, fir, aspen, poplar and alder, blotching is almost always quite ugly. In woods such as cherry, birch and soft maple, blotching is usually ugly but can be attractive. In woods such as walnut, curly maple, bird’s eye maple and most burls, blotching is usually very attractive. Woods such as oak, ash and mahogany don’t tend to blotch."

I do understand that the maple James is working with is a totally different animal than the swap ash, but I just like the idea of the grain being nice and black and then whatever color or colors I go with light over the top. it's not the grain pattern that I'm into but more oft he over all look and the way the colors interact and blend, ect...

Thanks again for taking the time with this newbie!

Troy