paintingrookie Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 Hi, I am hoping to build a 24 fret guitar specifically for metal for my son. The thing will have emg 81/85 pups, Wilkinson trem and be a thin solid body not unlike a "Blackmachine". However I am a bit concerned about the problem with the 24th fret being over where the neck pickup should be for a 25.5 inch scale length, and ruining the tone. What I want to know is why can't I move the trem and hence the saddles up the body, and the neck back a bit, and therefore have 24 frets and still have the centre of the neck pickup at the 2nd octave node. Obviously this will make the guitar longer by 2 frets, but to my novice mind the 25.5 inch scale length is still maintained. Or do the expert builders here think this node theory is just physics, after all I don't see anything wrong with the tone on a Jem. I have not decided on bolt on aanj or neck through yet. I see StewMac do a neck through 24 fret neck now. Thanks J Quote
brian d Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 Scale length is double the distance from the fingerboard edge of the nut to the 12th fret x 2. Compensation for is added for the bridge position (in the realms of 1-3mm or therabout). If you move the saddles relative to the nut, the scale length will change and the frets you have will not intonate. 24th fret will always be at 3/4 the scale length. That said, the position of the pickup at the "2nd octave node" is only true for open strings. As soon as you fret the note, the node positions change accordingly. On a metal guitar, I don't know how often open strings will be played, and I doubt that it makes a difference anyway. Does a guitar's tone sound so different if you play an open string compared to a fretted note? I'd just build it 24 frets (if you want 24 frets) and not worry about pickup position in relation to nodes. Hope this helps. Quote
Mickguard Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 Scale length is the relationship between the nut and the saddles (the High E saddle specifically). This must be spot on for the guitar to work. You could try angling the end of the fretboard -- so only the treble strings actually have 24 frets -- then angle the pickup. It would look cool too. But since this is a metal guitar, I really don't see how pickup placement will affect all that much -- since that sound is so heavily processed anyway. Quote
westhemann Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 I personally despise the tone of the neck pickup on the "node"...to me it sounds much better on a 24 fret neck.. since that sound is so heavily processed anyway. Still have no idea what you are talking about I see... Quote
Prostheta Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 +1 both points. If the guitar is perhaps being played in open tunings, pickup placement might matter more ;-D Quote
Bmth Builder Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 The node is always going to lie over the 24th fret, its impossible to have a 24th fret and a neck pup under the node (unless you built a fret into the pup... now theres an idea!) but node placement and pickup sweet spots is all tone voodoo as said any way, it only affects anything you do in open strings, as soon as you fret a note ALL the nodes move. Quote
paintingrookie Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Posted February 9, 2009 Hmmm, Thanks for all that advice guys. I think I will ignore the possible problems and bash on with 24 frets. But a slanted pickup like on the 27 fret Caparisons might look great. This guitar will be set up for drop c. It's technical death metal with solos and some none screamed vocals, and not too much of a processed wash of distortion, so that's why I was concerned with the sound. Ta J Quote
Prostheta Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 Sounds fun! Hope you keep us updated on the progress of course. Slanted pickups might be a problem with the EMG 81/85s on the basis that the magnets need to have ~3mm or so either side of the outer strings otherwise they drop in responsiveness. The 7-string versions of the 81/85 (81-7, 707 respectively) have longer bar magnets so these would help cover the strings if you angled the pickup(s) across 6 strings. Drop C will require heavier gauge strings and/or a longer scale length to maintain tone and intonation. I've had a lot of success with the 27" scale conversion neck I made for my LTD EXP-200, bringing it up from the standard 24-3/4". The tone is tighter in the lower harmonics (some would use the term "piano-like") and sounds more focused. Perhaps a consideration? I wouldn't say there were any "possible problems" with a 24 fret design by any means, so go for it for sure! Quote
Mickguard Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 I personally despise the tone of the neck pickup on the "node"...to me it sounds much better on a 24 fret neck.. since that sound is so heavily processed anyway. Still have no idea what you are talking about I see... It's just that I can't stand that ultra-clean acoustic tone they use in metal these days. Haven't those people every heard of amplifiers? Distortion pedals? Ah wait. Drak's back. So you're just practicing on me, right? Quote
Prostheta Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 I personally despise the tone of the neck pickup on the "node"...to me it sounds much better on a 24 fret neck.. since that sound is so heavily processed anyway. Still have no idea what you are talking about I see... It's just that I can't stand that ultra-clean acoustic tone they use in metal these days. Haven't those people every heard of amplifiers? Distortion pedals? Ah wait. Drak's back. So you're just practicing on me, right? Oh be nice to Wes - bronze medals are better than no medal at all.... Quote
Crusader Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) ...Obviously this will make the guitar longer by 2 frets... Are you contemplating making a guitar two frets longer than 25 1/2 inches? I have done this and its about 28 5/8" I did it to tune down to 'D' but its a bit of a stretch to tune to 'E' I've also done extensive experiments with various scale lengths vs pickup position. I found its best to stick to the same pu positions as for normal scale lengths. By the way pu position does make a difference no matter where you're playing. I find the sweetest spot for neck pu sound is above the 12th fret. I'm sure I''ve seen Vivian Cambell switch to neck for playing in this area on a Les Paul What I'm contemplating for my next guitar is the Gibson scale plus one fret on each end. Which gives you 24 frets and the neck pickup shouldn't have to move too much (imagine a Les Paul with 23 frets) I'm hoping it won't lose too much of the neck pu sound but you have to also consider the string tension. The scale length becomes about 26" which should tune to E with ease and be good for drop-tunings What it means is a scale length about a 1/2 inch longer than a Strat. I've actually been trying out one of my longer scale guitars tonight, tuned to D-sharp (instead of D) and it seems okay (ie the first fret is 26" from the bridge) Good luck with your project! Edited February 9, 2009 by Crusader Quote
WezV Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 i do sometimes prefer the sound of a neck pickup in the 24th fret position, but as others have pointed out - this is nothing to do with a node being there. thats just mojo, misunderstanding and misleading sales talk. what i really feel makes the difference is just simply the extra distance you can get between your bridge and neck pickups when you have less frets. that extra distance will lead to a greater tonal variation between neck and bridge pickups however, i still quite happily build guitars with 24 frets as the tonal difference is small and can be controlled with appropriate pickup choice and even appropriate wood/construction choice before that as an example, an all mahogany set neck guitar like a les paul custom can sometimes be wooley and dark in the neck position. having two extra frets and moving the pickup towards the bridge would help to control that, but it could also be controlled by changing the wood combo or trying a different pickup Quote
ihocky2 Posted February 9, 2009 Report Posted February 9, 2009 ...Obviously this will make the guitar longer by 2 frets... Are you contemplating making a guitar two frets longer than 25 1/2 inches? I have done this and its about 28 5/8" I did it to tune down to 'D' but its a bit of a stretch to tune to 'E' I've also done extensive experiments with various scale lengths vs pickup position. I found its best to stick to the same pu positions as for normal scale lengths. By the way pu position does make a difference no matter where you're playing. I find the sweetest spot for neck pu sound is above the 12th fret. I'm sure I''ve seen Vivian Cambell switch to neck for playing in this area on a Les Paul What I'm contemplating for my next guitar is the Gibson scale plus one fret on each end. Which gives you 24 frets and the neck pickup shouldn't have to move too much (imagine a Les Paul with 23 frets) I'm hoping it won't lose too much of the neck pu sound but you have to also consider the string tension. The scale length becomes about 26" which should tune to E with ease and be good for drop-tunings What it means is a scale length about a 1/2 inch longer than a Strat. I've actually been trying out one of my longer scale guitars tonight, tuned to D-sharp (instead of D) and it seems okay (ie the first fret is 26" from the bridge) Good luck with your project! The way you have everything worded comes off rather weird. It took me a few minutes to wrap my head around what you are doing. In simple terms you are just changing the scale length and the number of frets. The only problem is, you are still changing the scale length when you add frets (ie. distance) beyond the nut. The 24th fret node is always going to be 3/4 of the scale length, the only way you can put a pickup under it is to have fewer frets. You can add 100 frets beyond the nut and change the scale accordingly and the 24th fret node is still going to be 3/4 of the scale length. Quote
Crusader Posted February 10, 2009 Report Posted February 10, 2009 The way you have everything worded comes off rather weird... I have to laugh and I'm not surprised, I'm not much of a conversationalist! What I'm saying is much the same as what Wez just said Although the pu won't be under the 1/4 node of the longer scale, it will still be the same distance from the bridge, which I believe is more important, because - I have done lots and lots of experiments with bridge and middle pickups on the guitars I've made. Some are about 27 - 28 inches long and two are the same as the Gibson 24 3/4 scale (I haven't experimented with neck pickups because all the guitars I've made have 25 or 27 frets) Bridge humbuckers are usually positioned so the centre is at 1/16 of the scale length. But if you do this with a long scale guitar it sounds too mellow, half like a middle pickup With single-coils I wanted to get that elusive Strat bridge-and-middle sound. No matter what scale guitar I tried it on, I found its best to stick to the same positions as on a Strat I am predicting it will be the same for neck pickups - Quote
ihocky2 Posted February 10, 2009 Report Posted February 10, 2009 I understand what you are saying a little better now. I do agree though that the distance between the pickups makes the biggest difference in sound, not the fractions of an inch it is away from a node. Plus, I still question the whole node arguement, since the nodes are where the string is moving the least. Quote
Crusader Posted February 11, 2009 Report Posted February 11, 2009 (edited) I've just read each post in detail and I feel a bit stupid - He wants to tune down to C Btw its nearly midnight and its about 80 degrees in here (30 degrees celsius) The window is wide open and there's no breeze, It's like Florida in July! Anyway I hope my comments have been of some use to those who read this forum ... and if you want to drop-tune then thicker guage strings and longer scale is definately the go Edited February 11, 2009 by Crusader Quote
paintingrookie Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Posted March 3, 2009 Sorry not been around to keep up with this thread, thanks all for the info lol. This project started off as a frankenguitar, based upon a "butchered" Parker p38 body, with a drop top instead of a pickguard, and an Ibanez RG neck with aanj. So what I am going to do is fit the neck and trem then check that the thing will intonate, after that I will do the rest of the surgery and finish. I am having a bit of a struggle with the concept of 26 inch scales etc, but as the Ibanez neck is a 25.5 scale then that is what i'll have to build. Incidentally my sons jem measures 12.795 inches (325mm) nut to 12th fret and 12.717 inches(323) 12th fret to bridge, which is 25.512 inches(648), which as it intonates no problem seems to be within spec. J Quote
psw Posted March 3, 2009 Report Posted March 3, 2009 Hmmm Incidentally my sons jem measures 12.795 inches (325mm) nut to 12th fret and 12.717 inches(323) 12th fret to bridge, which is 25.512 inches(648), which as it intonates no problem seems to be within spec. Yes...thank goodness for metric...so, the bridge here is 2mm shorter which is generally done (you have more than 2mm travel in the saddles. When you fret a note, you push down on the string bending it a little, the saddles are moved adjusting the scale length to compensate for each strings deflection. SO, this is typical! The scale length helps with these tuned down things, like a bass has generally a longer length and thicker strings to get a reasonable tension on them. So, tuning all the way down to C with normal strings, they will be flapping about like rubber bands. Thicker strings helps, but that and a longer scale length as people were discussing for these low tunings really helps keep a decent tension on them. However, you are working with a standard neck...so go with what you have and disregard the rest. Use heavier strings and intonate according to the gauge. ... As for the neck pickup thing...there is obviously some debate and "mojo" about. As you don't have a lot of choice with this build, I wouldn't be to concerned and the bridge pickup tends to get more use anyway...well typically! But...to fuel the fire perhaps... The bridge pickup is always near the end point of the string (the bridge) and as you get towards the fixed end, the harmonics (nodes and modes of string vibration) tend to be more complex (lot's more of the harmonic series is present in the tone). This is why it is easier to get harmonics and such with the bridge pickup, and it has a brighter tone when used. The strings though are near a fixed point and so have less physical movement, hence the bridge pickup is often more powerful to compensate for balance with other pickups like the neck. However, the nodes change with the decreasing scale length caused by fretting notes. So, a note played up at the highest frets, puts the "fixed point" (like the bridge permanently is) right up at the neck pickup. Some players feel that playing at higher frets it is advantageous to switch to the neck pickup. But these are ratio's, even playing at higher frets, the bridge pickup will always be close to the fixed point and will have this more complex harmonic characteristics. The distance between the pickups will create the tonal variation between them...so a neck pickup tends to have a smoother rounder, fundamental mode sound (except at the higher frets, see above)...the further away from the fixed point the better. As rhythm (as indicated on the LP's switch plate for the neck pickup) generally involves fretting notes lower down the neck...the further away "the better"...particularly for tonal variation. But, I suspect it does not matter all that much generally to most people. There are other reasons that makers such as PRS converted back to 22 frets (neck joint stability, neck from body, looks, etc) as much as any mode, nodes or shmodes mojos! Where I have found these things really matter is in the combined pickup selection. We are talking ratio's here, so there are cancellation and reinforcement issues with sampling the vibrations at different parts of the strings. These will vary with fretting, but will still be a factor. The middle/bridge or neck sound on a strat is not "out of phase" electronically, but the placement makes it sound a bit like that. The closer the pickups get to each other and in combination, the more this effect is apparent. With big old HB's (not a feature on strats) the distance between is even less really and the sampling area bigger. This is where there is some truth in the "mojo"...when combining close HB pickups as on a 24 fret guitar, these notched tones can be for less attractive. If this was a majorly concern though, you'd be thinking less frets (21 perhaps) smaller pickups (say single coils) and a longer scale length to play with...but then you'd be thinking like Leo and have come up with a stratocaster...hahahaha...clearly not what you want I suppose! ... Anyway...make of that as you will...with this project you don't have a whole lot of options as the scale length and so bridge placement and such are already a given if you want it to play in tune! Of course, many just simply forgo a neck pickup entirely! pete Quote
ae3 Posted March 4, 2009 Report Posted March 4, 2009 Using a single coil sized humbucker can help the tone of a 24 fret guitar because the inside coil is a lot closer to the neck. It's all about compromise, just like every other aspect of guitar building. Quote
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