John Abbett Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Hi all. I'm starting to think about another build. I thought I was done for a while, but I just can't help myself. Anyway, I got hold of some plans, and am thinking about doing a mix of wood to give it the look of the stripes on an AC Cobra. It'll be a neck through, the center section will be 2 inches of maple, 1 inch of Mahogany, and 2 Inches of Maple. The wings will be mahogany. The neck will of course be maple with a 1 inch stripe of mahogany down the middle since it's a neck through.. So I went to the local Guitar Center, and played the real deal. A nice off white Gibson Firebird ($ 1695.00 ). I was impressed with the sustain and the tone. The neck weight however bothered me a bit. It had a very pronounced neck dive. The tuners were the banjo style that are stright through to the back, and the headstock is pretty heavy. Anyone have any suggestions on fixing the neck dive, if not all the way, some? I'm guessing the problem is the center of gravity on the body is too far forward, but that is what gives you the look. If I mess with that, I mess with the whole look. I could maybe add some weight to the tail, a tremolo would add some weight, but I can't add a bigsby because the end of the guitar is not square with the center line. (I would like to do that, I love Bigsbys). I could use some heavier wood for the wings, but if the center of gravity is off for the body, that would only make it worse. I could try to find lighter tuners, but they may add to the sustain.. or not.. I could do a thinner headstock, since it's the furthest out from the center of gravity it would have the most impact. Lead shot epoxy'd into the bottom of the guitar? Any suggestions? -John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Use Model B5 And you could try (expensive because you have to buy 2 sets) 5 Star Banjo Pegs Also using maple in the neck will make it heavier than using mahogany throughout. This is a crazy idea but if I was worried about weight and balance I would use Sapele everywhere I planned on using Mahogany. Since you are doing a Maple neck through it will probably not sound different and would sure solve the weight issue as Sapele is heavier than Mahogany in my experience. \m/ Padauk or Wenge would work also. \m/ Hard Maple Pounds per cubic foot maximum 46 Hard Maple Pounds per cubic foot minimum 44 African Mahogany Pounds per cubic foot maximum 36 African Mahogany Pounds per cubic foot minimum 31 Sapele Pounds per cubic foot maximum 47 Sapele Pounds per cubic foot minimum 42 Padauk Pounds per cubic foot maximum 45 Padauk Pounds per cubic foot minimum 45 Wenge Pounds per cubic foot maximum 56 Wenge Pounds per cubic foot minimum 56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Abbett Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I hadn't thought about the B5. That's a great solution. It will add weight to the tail. I looked at the link for the banjo tuners, they sell them individually also.. It's going to be 100 bucks for the 6 tuners.. Ouch. I was planning on hard rock maple for the neck, but I might switch to some soft maple, it's going to be maple, mahogany, maple laminate for the neck, so it soft (Curly) maple should be plenty strong. (I typically use hard rock curly maple, it doesn't move much at all ever). So with the B5, and the soft maple instead of hard maple it should be a bit better. The Firebird has a pretty large fingerguard that covers the lower section toward the headstock. I can remove some weight there if I need to also. Hollow some of that out a bit. Any other ideas? I think we're getting there. -John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 After a recent round and round with soft maple I can tell you it is lighter than hard maple. I have been contemplating carving some relief into the back of my headstock to reduce weight on a current project. You know just carving a shallow bowl into the back of the headstock to reduce weight without hurting strength (leaving the edges full thickness and the face flat). Sounds weird but I might try it this weekend and post some pics.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 simple answer - if you are building a firebird then learn to live with the neck dive!!! lighter tuners and a heavier body all help but there are no garantees on this design, but you could play with the design - move the bridge back a bit and deepen the cutaway if that makes top end access worse than you want, also consider making the wings thicker - the originals are very thin. shorter headstock maybe. move the strap button to the top edge rather than behind the heel but at what point does it stop being a firebird. it is sometimes possible to just about get a firebird to balance... dont think its ever possible with a thunderbird It just occured to me i had done some of the things i suggested a while back, this was my first commision - better balance than a traditional firebird but still not perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I can't really add to the balance issue. Making the body heavier will compensate some, but then you're making the guitar heavier. We usually try to avoid that. But... if you want heavy woods: Jatoba - 56 lbs/cu ft Ipe - 62 lbs/cu ft Zebrawood - 46 lbs/cu ft Hickory - 50 lbs/cu ft Bocote - 56 lbs/cu ft Cocobolo - 68 lbs/cu ft If you want straight tuners, the Steinberger gearless tuners are great. They come in at about $100/set. BUT - do NOT use them if you're going to have the Bigsby. I have that combo on my Tele, and the whole thing is a royal PIA to string up. Do one ot the other, but not both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLMGuitars Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 All you need to do is put the strap button on the end of the guitar in a different place! I've done this on many guitars with odd shapes and it works GREAT! here: move the button (NOT the neck one) to back or edge of the guitar on the upper wing where it comes to kind-of a point. I don't have a firebird in front of me but this will almost definately work! If you have one or go to the store and hold one try this...hold the guitar from the neck strap button and end button, it feels like it wants to dip neck down,right? now try this,,,hold the neck button and pinch the upper wing body point, it should tilt into a more traditional playing position...it may work better if you put it on the back instead of the 'side' and move it in alittle so it doesn't push the neck too far from you making you stretch you left hand to get towards the nut, but rather hangs where it should . give it a try, it might or might not work but it's worked for me in the past! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Abbett Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Thanks for the tip, but the strap button doesn't weigh enough to balance out the guitar.. =) I usually sit while playing, so it needs to balance on my knee. Changing the center of gravity will fix that. I'm actually not that worried about it with a strap, you can always adjust it to work. -John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 All you need to do is put the strap button on the end of the guitar in a different place! Hmmm...But surely it is the front strap button that is the balancing point and the issue. In a strat or LP this is approaching the 12th fret. Moving the button further back may shift the guitar further to the left, but to me is would seem to make it worse? Or have i got that wrong. The firebird is a great guitar, the eagle beak headstock is one of it's coolest features in my opinion...the balance typically not so great. Bigsbys being aluminium don't add that much weight back there, but perhaps that's why a real firebird used to hanve those big old long ornate steel side action gibson temolos on there (also one of the "cool features of an original (not so great as a tremolo though)) You might consider making a fake tailpiece kind of thing to get that weight and the look... pete alternatively, you could try attaching a helium balloon to the headstock at gigs to keep the neck up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLMGuitars Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 the strap button move won't help for a sitting position, very true. It does seem backwards to move the end button instead of the neck one but it actually works. I know it's hard to belive but I've done it on a few custom shaped guitars and it works great. it might not work for a firebird though, i don't have one in front of me to try it...it doesn't work as well on SG's (they can have the similar neck dive problem) and i'm guessing it's from the body shape and size. moving the neck button towards the neck (under the heel) can actually make it much worse on many guitars (i know from experience), it's a very strange thing... When i design a new body shape or get a custom request from a customer for their own body shape i warn them that the end button may need to be relocated to have a good position, it does shift the center of gravity the opposite way you would think. I can tell right away from looking at the design now-a-days... many acoustic guitars have the same problem of neck dive when the neck strap button is at the heel...not as easy of a fix on acoustics because you want it to be screwed into solid wood (heel/end block) not a thin side. don't knock it till you try it! I've been reading this forum for years and build guitars professionally...I haven't posted until today but when i read the topic to the post i knew right away what he was dealing with and thought this could help him or maybe someone else from my experience since it does seem so backwards. trust me...I've drilled new button locations before thinking 'oh yeah! it'll TOTALLY work if i put it HERE!' just to find out I've made it worse...not the greatest feeling when it's a customers new guitar and they have 3-4 strap buttons in very strange places. I actually had to build a whole new guitar for a understandably unsatisfied customer when he saw what i had done! It was hard to sell that botch-up after too, people don't want to see 4 strap buttons all over the place ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLMGuitars Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Remember...measure FIVE times, cut ONCE! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLMGuitars Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 WELL...if you don't mind playing with a strap while you're sitting, the button move just might work for you. even if you rest it on your knee, the strap may hold it in the right place if you adjust the length accordingly. Probably depends on how tall you are and you're playing posture. hope this helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLMGuitars Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 All you need to do is put the strap button on the end of the guitar in a different place! Hmmm...But surely it is the front strap button that is the balancing point and the issue. In a strat or LP this is approaching the 12th fret. Moving the button further back may shift the guitar further to the left, but to me is would seem to make it worse? Or have i got that wrong. The firebird is a great guitar, the eagle beak headstock is one of it's coolest features in my opinion...the balance typically not so great. Bigsbys being aluminium don't add that much weight back there, but perhaps that's why a real firebird used to hanve those big old long ornate steel side action gibson temolos on there (also one of the "cool features of an original (not so great as a tremolo though)) You might consider making a fake tailpiece kind of thing to get that weight and the look... pete alternatively, you could try attaching a helium balloon to the headstock at gigs to keep the neck up! just to be clear...i was referring to moving the button on the end of the guitar, NOT the neck one, which should be on the upper horn and not behind the heel. kind of hard to explain in writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherokee6 Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I know the SG has the same problem. The 3 pickup configuration helps with the balance by the added weight. However, I don't recall Johnny Winter ever having any problems with it! (of course he doesn't play it as much anymore due to his health as its too heavy for him). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 I love the firebird, so don't get me wrong. Such guitars have flaws, it is a part of why it never really caught on. Changing a firebird, or any other classic design begs the question posed earlier...when does it cease to be a firebird! SG's can have a similar problem for the same reason...the balancing point which is generally the point of the strap button...but seated may involve the lower curved shape and obviously the neck length clear of the body and the length and weight of the headstock. With guitars such as these, they could be seen as endearing quirks perhaps. I am sure J Winter didn't mind holding up the neck a little while playing to get the look and sound of the firebird However, with custom designs, I don't see a reasoning to design such flaws into them...but if you really must have a "shape" or look then the consequences need to be lived with I'd suggest. The firebird does have some potential to be corrected by adding weight to the elongated tail end especially when seated...something like a heavy vibrola back there may help...or maybe some lead weights inserted into holes drilled in to the side of the control cavity as far back as you can (maybe tire balancing weights for instance) and done after the build is complete. I don't think that hollowing out the middle part of the guitar would help other than to compensate for the added weight at the back because the lightening is exactly where it is balancing on the knee or near the fulcrum (if you see the guitar as a lever) and so would have negligible effect. Interestingly...the explorer doesn't suffer quite like this because of it's huge tail fin back there (remember that these designs were created in an era when they thought that fins on cars would make them "go" faster, and that the firebird was designed by a car builder as a response to fenders strat types)...ibanez's Iceman which is also derivative in many respects fixed the flaw with more neck reinforcement similar to a single cut forcing the strap button further forward. The too designed a very long body even though they dispensed with things like the explorers rear "fin". pete PS...i recently saw the DVD of ZZ Top "live from texas" and there was an interview with the maker of some of the custom guitars. The main guitar for the show was a telecaster (it had fender on it, but was a custom maker's like most of their stuff). They revealed that the thing was very light as both the body and the neck were extensively hollowed out!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougK Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) I've gotten obsessive over these Firebirds. I build them from African Mahogany and use the Steinberger tuners. I have NO balance issues. First one The one I just finished for my father in law Did I mention I've gone a bit crazy building these things? I am not exaggerating about the balance. I did the same thing, went out and played a bunch of actually gibbys and they all dove. I do use a strap peg behind the neck (like an SG) but the one at the butt is offset up. I think thats a big part of the balance. You could (if using something like dunlop straplocks) recess one in on the upper bout so its not "seen" but an option still. Edited March 4, 2009 by DougK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Abbett Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Holy CRAP. Firebird Heaven! That's some really nice work there. Very impressive.. How many can you play at once again?? I know, I can't talk, I've got 7 guitars at this point. I start pulling out plans and the wife just shakes her head in wonderment. I tell her if I don't build guitars all the money spent on tools is wasted! It makes sense in a strange sort of way. -John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyChester Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) Doug and I have been working on these for a couple months. Last weekend we fretted 6 of them and I'm going to fret one for my son this weekend. My FB (the fiesta red one) doesn't seem to be horribly neck heavy even while sitting, without a strap. With a strap and standing I can let go of the neck and it balances pretty good. I think that the large upper wing tucks under your arm and helps to balance. I also think that the African Mahogany neck really helps the balance. It took me 5 months to finish mine. Doug had the first two completely machined in about a month and he finished his in another 4 or 5 weeks but I'm rather slow with my finish work. Edited March 4, 2009 by CrazyChester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougK Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Very impressive.. How many can you play at once again?? LOL I know right... Well in all fairness only 3 of those are mine (and one was built from scraps anyways)... the rest go to my buddies who found out I was building some Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Abbett Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Wow.. I want to be your best pal now! =) This is very obsessive. I just finished a really nice red curly maple 335. Now I have to build a Firebird. Do I NEED another guitar.. YES! I spent a few minutes in the shop, looking under workbenches for wood stashes and scraps. I'm thinking cherry with maple stripes. Cherry isn't normally a guitar wood, but several people have done it. It burnishes and oils to a very nice depth and offsets the maple nice. It's also not too heavy. Plus I have some! Thanks everyone for their input. I think If I follow the tips listed here I can balance it out pretty well. -John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 I'm speechless...now I want one (why couldn't gibson do theirs as nice... On the other hand....that's one fine 'bird cage you got there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Abbett Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Ready for the "All Firebird Band"... -John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougK Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Ready for the "All Firebird Band"... -John Way ahead of you my buddy who I play with has one in this batch... We've started (jokingly) calling ourselves the "Thunderous Firebirds" lol. I figure well atlast get confused Jimmie Vaughn fans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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