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however, none of this changes the fact that nodes move when you change the length of the bloody string

Possibly the most important point to remember.

However, the vibration of a string is also not a sine wave like this but a complex of vibrations. The fundamental may have nodes at those points (for a given length of string and pickup placement) but the harmonics behind them have different nodal points. As you get towards the end point, such as the bridge, the pickup can sense more of these complex harmonic vibrations...where as further away such as on a neck pickup there is a far more powerful fundamental content resulting in a smoother tone.

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The fundamental may have nodes at those points (for a given length of string and pickup placement) but the harmonics behind them have different nodal points. As you get towards the end point, such as the bridge, the pickup can sense more of these complex harmonic vibrations...where as further away such as on a neck pickup there is a far more powerful fundamental content resulting in a smoother tone.

But the point is still this:

It's a waste of time trying to calculate the perfect node.

Clearly, as you move up and down the string, the pickup will capture a different set of vibrations. But to say that the pickup "must be in position X to capture the tone of that node" is just silly.

Why?

Because as soon as you fret a string, the node moves.

If you make two identical guitars, one 22 fret and one 24, and place the neck pickup at the base of the neck, obviously there will be a minute difference in sound. The 22 fretters "octave node" should be right above the pickup, while the 24 fretters "octave node is before the pickup. As soon as you fret a note, the 22 fretters node is now being pushed passed the pickup, while the 24 fretters is being pushed onto the pickup.

Not that any of this really matters, as the pickups field isn't that narrow anyway...

Voodoo.

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Talking about nodes and antinodes (okay I lost my physics books somewhere in the last decade or two and I can't remember which is which but;) Every node is also an antinode

What the?

Think about it. A string vibrates first of all the full length, then halves, then in thirds, then quarters and so-on up to infinity and this is where/how you get "upper harmonics" or "upper partials" and also how you get the "harmonic series" Looking at the graph that Notyou put up only depicts a string vibrating in halves. But when the sting vibrates in full length, the node in the middle becomes an antinode, thus becoming the stongest harmonic point

RAI6 I wouldn't bother tying to calculate the perfect node. Someone a bit earlier says a mate of his is working for a company that is developing a computer program that calculates the "sweet spot" I'm sorry but thats the most rediculous thing I've heard in a long time. To find where the pickup works best, just try it in different places till you find the spot you like it the most! The ear is the best "instrument" for calculating the best sound (but as far as I'm concerned the guys in the old days got it right so why mess with it?)

The other thing that keeps coming up - "When a sting is fretted that the neck pickup is no longer on the 2nd octave node" I keep saying (what was explained to me) that the string still vibrates on the other side of the fret and therefore still has an effect on the sound (its not like you've chopped the string off at the fret) In other words the antinode is not completely gone. Or maybe its the timber resonating under the length of the string that does it. Or maybe its all of these things in combination and thats what I believe (the string of course also vibrates all the way from the tailpiece to the tuning pegs but I don't think it has as much effect - something to talk about later)

Two of my guitars have very similar neck pickups (my Strat Copy now has a SD '59) and has 25 frets. When comparing it to my Les Paul, the LP has a very distinct sound all over the fretboard that the Strat copy never comes close to (also to comment my strat has a Gibson scale length) The distinct sound that I'm referring to can be found on any guitar that has the neck pickup on the 2nd octave node, regardless of scale length

However if you read all the previous posts it has been strongly pointed out that it has nothing to do with a pickup being on an antinode (thanks NotYou you're right about the terminology) It is merely because its further from the bridge. I'm still not completely convinced though!

I think there were other things I was going to say but I worked a 12-hour shift today and I'm on the wagon again so if I say anything it would probably be more stupid than what I usually say

Keep smiling!

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On single coils it's easy to position under the node, you put the poles right under it. But what about humbuckers? Does one coil react better than the other? Does it not matter as long as there is a set of poles under it? Is in between the poles better?

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On single coils it's easy to position under the node, you put the poles right under it. But what about humbuckers? Does one coil react better than the other? Does it not matter as long as there is a set of poles under it? Is in between the poles better?

Still...you can't get around the fact that all the modes of vibration change with every fretted note.

HB's have a wider sensing window and give them that midrangey sound in general.

I do think that some guitars work better for different types of playing though...if you play around the middle of the fret board as I do a lot, or a lot of chords...some guitars do have a pleasing sound for different kinds of play.

Some different combination's of pickups have surprising results. My tele has a huge bright HB in the bridge...sounds like a single coil really...and a small SCn tele neck pickup. The neck is exceptionally warm and the Hb bright...the combination is much like the neck pickup but there are more harmonics. Most harmonics with the neck pickup alone are almost inaudible but the tone exceptionally warm. Perhaps not one might expect from these very different pickup types...almost the reverse of the rule.

I don't think that any of this has to do with the position of the pickups however...more the types than anything.

pete

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Well after 3 nights in a row of drinking I should be right to make comments again!

Yeah the humbucker vs sc is an issue always on my mind too, but I think as long as one coil is over the right spot the other just adds to the sound. It would be interesting to hear what it sounds like if the inner coil was over the node

Anyway, on the theory that the full length of the string always has an effect on the nodes. Think about railway lines, they don't visibly move (vibrate) but sound will travel through them for miles even though they are nailed to chunks of wood all along the way (isnt that like frets?)

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Well after 3 nights in a row of drinking I should be right to make comments again!

Yeah the humbucker vs sc is an issue always on my mind too, but I think as long as one coil is over the right spot the other just adds to the sound. It would be interesting to hear what it sounds like if the inner coil was over the node

Anyway, on the theory that the full length of the string always has an effect on the nodes. Think about railway lines, they don't visibly move (vibrate) but sound will travel through them for miles even though they are nailed to chunks of wood all along the way (isnt that like frets?)

If the 'dead length' of string made a difference to nodes, the nodes wouldn't be under the 24th fret for every guitar, and the whole 'magic position' disappears again.

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Are you referring to the string that goes from the nut to the tuning pegs and from the bridge to the tailpiece?

I agree that they have an effect on the tone of the instrument. Notice how you rarely see headless six string guitars?

I would say the bridge and the nut are more of a "cut-off" point than the frets. And the strings between the bridge and the nut are longer and have the most effect

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The other thing that keeps coming up - "When a sting is fretted that the neck pickup is no longer on the 2nd octave node" I keep saying (what was explained to me) that the string still vibrates on the other side of the fret and therefore still has an effect on the sound (its not like you've chopped the string off at the fret) In other words the antinode is not completely gone.

Hmmm...there may be something missing to me here...did i miss some of the discussion? Who explained this to you?

Anyway, on the theory that the full length of the string always has an effect on the nodes. Think about railway lines, they don't visibly move (vibrate) but sound will travel through them for miles even though they are nailed to chunks of wood all along the way (isnt that like frets?)

No....the train is like a slide or fret, not the sleepers. The train will initiate vibrations in the rails in both directions away from it. What you are doing with an electric guitar (or the body of an acoustic) is amplifying one end of it. If you amplify the vibrations behind the slide they will be generally out of tune with the note you are playing and sound really bad. In fact, generally with slide playing you dampen the strings behind the slide specifically to stop these vibrations.

Such considerations are outside the pickup position debate and to some extent have been explored and experimented with in another thread a while back (length of string behind the nut or bridge).

So...there may be small effects on the vibration of the wood by the string length behind a fretted note, they are not generally enough to have much effect on the sound sensed by the pickup or vibrating body in front of it, or the fact that the length ahead is being physically plucked or strummed...not resonating.

An easy experiment is to put a big clamp on the headstock...by doing so you cancel a lot of these vibrations which might be desirable as these small vibrations can have a detrimental effect on sustain because of random canceling waves. The headstock and tuners can have a substantial effect on this and why products like the "fat head" (a brass plate screwed to the back of the head) was inspired (although making the guitar neck heavy.

The mass of the head can have a big effect on the guitars vibration and so the sound of any pickup (changing tuners can have an impact on the sound of a guitar)...headless guitars like the steignberger addressed this with remarkably stiff carbon construction (as do many basses)...perhaps that is why you don't see that many headless guitars.

But these theories do seem to be propagating myths...or confusing effects and analogies. So again, maybe I missed something, but who explained this concept and with what authority?

You may also want to look at some effects I commented on here link about slanting the bridge or other pickups. The bridge pickup is more susceptible to changes in position perhaps. As fo0r middle pickups, they are generally judged by the effect they have in combination with other pickups and the position of pickups relevant to each other does make a remarkable difference and could be argued to possess "sweet spots" for their cancellation qualities.

As for HB's, both coils sense the string and so have a much wider aperture of sensing. One coil will not read more than another...have a think about it...both coils read equally due to the rwrp construction.

But there are flaws in the idea of the string behind the fretted note being a big if any influence on the pickup sensing or position...it is far more a question of the stiffness of the neck, damping technique behind a fretted note and things like the mass at the far end of the neck that can dampen these vibrations. Generally the effect of such vibrations (say on a rubbery neck) is to create interferance waves not related to the note played (or just as bad reinforcement waves) creating dead and hot fretted notes here and there and should be avoided.

The length of string behind the fretted note to the bridge will almost always be detrimental to the vibration of the notes you are trying to produce by these effects as the length of string behind the fretted note bears little harmonic relationship to it.

For instance...if you were to play an e string fretted at the 12th fret you would get an e vibrating on either side (or close to it as it wouldn't be intonated correctly). If you move up one fret to F (13th) there would be a length os string behind the fretted note that was perhaps something like Eb (the string has been shortened to the bridge but lengthen behind). Now...that is not a good combination is it! At some pints these will have bad effects on the vibration of the string, at others it will have reinforcing effects creating harmonic effects. The fact is that generally we don't here these (although you can if you put a pickup behind the fretted notes or on some electric guitars played acoustically...and on an undamped slide guitar)...and in generally this is a very bad thing!

Anyway...hope this informs things a bit more...

pete

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While we've been discussing this topic it has prompted me to look and think deeper about the theory that was loosely explained to me 32 years ago

When I left school I grew my hair and bought a Les Paul

I asked the guy in the shop "Why don't they have 24 frets?"

"The pickup wouldn't be in the best place...bla bla"

"Yea but once you start playing fretted notes the pu isn't on the node any more"

"No but it's still on the node of the full length of the string and therefore still has an effect on the sound"

"Ah okay, I don't get it but if thats what they say...(but I will think about this!)"

So it has been my mission all these years to prove or disprove this theory and I have to point out that I'm just speculating like anyone else. But maybe sometimes I could choose better words. I'm not trying to put accross my point of view as "fact" I do appologies if anything has come accross that way

If you amplify the vibrations behind the slide they will be generally out of tune with the note you are playing and sound really bad

Yes thats right, I spent a lot of time experimenting with sounds from 'the other side'

This is where I could have chosen better words but I wasn't talking about the sound from the other side. I was talking about the inaudible sound tavelling through the full length of the string

No....the train is like a slide or fret, not the sleepers. The train will initiate vibrations in the rails...

I was just using railway tracks and sleepers as an example of how sound travels through metal even though it is muted. When you press a string down to a fret you mute part of the string. A railway track is like if you put a cappo between every fret. Even if you did that, sound would still travel through the string

What I'm tying to say is there are two different types of vibrations going on when you strum a chord or pick a note

There are the vibrations which produce the audible sound, but there is also inaudible vibrations which will travel through the string just like a railway track. And it will travel all the way between the tailpiece and the tuning pegs

Massive propagator

I took a few measurements off my Les Paul today and here's what I found

Distance between tailpiece and middle of headstock - 780mm

780 divided by 4 equals 195

Guess what the distance is from the tailpiece to the neck pickup?

Okay so only the 2nd and 5th strings are on the 2nd octave node of the full length of the string but I think it's quite obvious what the designers were aiming at

So to sum it up so far, what I am suggesting is the inaudible vibrations from the the full length of the strings will re-inforce the audible sound when the pickup is at points where their nodes coincide

Its just a theory but I think it makes sense

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so lets assume for a moment you are correct and thats why les pauls are built with those measurements.

wouldnt that mean anything without gibsons magical string length would not sound as good? Thats simple not true is it

I think you are trying to overstretch the slim evidence to fit the old guitar shop voodoo (spouted by untrained pretentious sales people), when it consistently falls down whenever you consider other variables.

Its voodoo and sales talk and thats about it

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I don't see anything "falling down" If by "other variables" you are talking about the fact that some guitars have a lot more string between bridge and tailpiece and others have none -

I'm sure the string length beyond the nut and behind the bridge would have a very marginal effect on the sound (in regard to the concept I am talking about) The length between the bridge and the nut is much longer and therefore have the most effect. It seems to me that Gibson have gone "all the way" with this concept - which may or may not be necessarry

The angle of the headstock etc plays an important role here too. If the nut, and the pressure on it was just like a fret, then the string length between bridge and tuning pegs would play a much more important role in the theory I am putting forward

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i dont believe it to be an issue anyway, i just dont buy this whole string length thing (too many variables) or this node/antinode pickup placement idea (too many variables). for me it does fall down as soon as you take into account other variables, but then i am not focused on trying to prove it to be true!

i think you give gibson too much credit with this idea, which i am not convinced is correct anyway. but i suppose its possible the stumbled on some magical measurement just through trial and error.

i still have not read anything that convinces me neck pickup position is anything more than a personal preference - although i should point out i am open to the idea since i prefer guitars with less frets which usually have the pickup at the 24th... and i personally am very picky about where i have the pickup on single pickup basses!! :D

A lot of info on guitars is much more available than it used to be thanks to the internet, we no longer need to rely on guitar shop hearsay and myths

maybe i am just being stubborn... maybe this is one of Paul Reed Smiths '28 secrets of tone'. then again i am a firm believer in Ockham's razor, i dont need overly complex explanations

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I don't see anything "falling down" If by "other variables" you are talking about the fact that some guitars have a lot more string between bridge and tailpiece and others have none -

I'm sure the string length beyond the nut and behind the bridge would have a very marginal effect on the sound (in regard to the concept I am talking about) The length between the bridge and the nut is much longer and therefore have the most effect. It seems to me that Gibson have gone "all the way" with this concept - which may or may not be necessarry

The angle of the headstock etc plays an important role here too. If the nut, and the pressure on it was just like a fret, then the string length between bridge and tuning pegs would play a much more important role in the theory I am putting forward

Has it ever occured to you that standard pickup positions sound best cause that is what the pickups are wound for? Its not like much effort was put into choosing those 'original' pickup positions, but a lot more effort has gone into optimising the pickups to fit those positions.

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I really think things are getting into mysticism a little here. I don't by this at all for the reasons given..especially the modes and antinondes which change with every fretted note...or that the length of string behind the note is at all advantageous...generally one attempts to dampen the string behind the fretted note or it is dampened automatically by the finger pad (remember behind the finger it does not bend over a fret as it does in front generally.

As for gibson's design team...hmmm...there is a clear evolution from the archtop guitars, I really don't think there is a magic position there other than the provisions already discussed.

If you want to look at why people may choose to design a guitar a certain way that seems to make some intuitive "sense"...maybe you should look to the science of aesthetics. The Fibonacci series and the golden mean relate to the harmonic series that is graphically drawn out in the distance between frets...perhaps the gibson position of the neck pickup makes more intuitive sense from a design/aesthetic point of view than it does to anything else. Although, I doubt that gibson would have though about it like that at all...most likely they thought it was one more fret than the tele and they had big pickups that needed to be far apart to get a good variance of tone.

Honestly try the slide without damping...in this "experiment" you will be able to clearly hear the effect of the ringing of the string behind a given note and how bad these interference tones are. Similarly to test your theory, wrap a sock behind the fretted notes to prevent vibrations on that string length...perhaps it will have no effect...perhaps it will sound better!

This sort of thing may also relate to things like neck joint tightness, type and resonances of the neck as well.

The nodes/antinodes thing really is a furphy and far to simplistic a way to look at things...at the very least it should be laid to rest buy the fact that these things change with every fretted note that effectively makes the string shorter.

On a bass where the strings are considerably longer, the fundamental modes of vibration are longer and the fundamental note wanted to be far stronger...and with single coil pickups...there probably is advantageous positions for general play of that instrument...but with guitar I think that there are other things at work, a different kind of tone desired and a different type of play completely (full range, higher frequencies, chords, etc)

pete

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The neck pickup on a Les Paul is in a magic position because it's pickup ring hides the leading edge of the neck tenon. Cosmetic voodoo. The only position that a pickup should perhaps be debated on is the bridge position as the proximity to a guaranteed node (the saddle) could in fact present predictable harmonic properties, although most probably not within our human hearing range.

Pickup combinations/switching have far more useful possibilities than their individual placements, IMO. I agree with the poopers - it's all pouring out of the salesman's mouths and into your brain. There isn't a sweet spot unless perhaps you play one scale in one position, forever.

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Correction

I'm not sure if using the term "fundamental" is correct

And there are always nodes or antinodes at the 2nd octave node (even with a slide or fretless fingerboard) Its like the 2nd octave node is a "meeting place" for sound waves. I am sure this does not occur anywhere else in the length of the string (except maybe the 12th and fifth fret of course)

My calculations are like this

Gibson scale length, bridge to first fret = 593.85mm Bridge to neck pickup = 157.1625mm

593.85 x 4.5/17 = 157.195mm

The antinode isn't right on the pickup but its close enough and every fret calculates using this formula using the apropriate fraction. But apart from that there is still an antinode or node right on the pickup

Where did I get 4.5/17 from? It helps to know the old school stuff like the 1/18th rule

If the first fret is 1/18th of the scale then the rest is 17/18th So the calculation is actually more like

593.85/17 = 34.93235 then times 4.5 = 157.195

For the second fret I use 8/9 for the third 5/6 but there are many ways to calculate natural harmonic notes. If we didn't use the tempered scale, and could use notes from the harmonic series then it would be perfect

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No comments? Do I have to pick on my own argument? (Or are you guys just getting sick of it?) I can easily poke holes in it!

What if you move the nut to the first fret? Or made the scale one fret longer? All the same vibrations will occur, the pickup is still the same distance from the bridge, its just a bunch of mathematics!

I just did the maths if you moved the nut to the 1st fret position. The nodes/antinodes are all on 148.46mm However what we want is the stronger vibrations (ie. the longer wavelengths) but even though the ones I’ve put up are directly related to the position of frets, they still aren’t very long. So I keep getting back round to the full string length having something to do with it

I’m still convinced that although you play a fretted note, the true 2nd octave node still exists even if its very weak (This is where the "railway track" idea comes in) My theory is, because the other nodes are close to it they would re-inforce each other resulting in the strongest nodal/antinodal point in the pickup region

Let me explain what I meant about railway tracks, what I had in mind was this. If someone hits a track with a sledge hammer, a person 5 miles away wouldn’t hear it unless they put their ear to the track. I’m theorising two things; (1) These types of sound waves exist in a string (and will have nodes) and, (2) The pickup will “hear” like putting your ear to the track

I’m at my wits end to think of ways of proving anything really but there has to be a scientific reason for the sound you get from having a pickup on the 2nd octave node to sound the way it does

Also I wanted to point out when I bought my first Les Paul in 1977 I don’t know if there were any 24 fret guitars around. I was just a 15yo kid who knew nothing and chose it purely by its shape. I wasn’t co-erced into buying it for any reason. I just pointed at a picture in a brochure and said “I want one of those” It was about 2 months later that I asked about 24 frets and it was explained to me that it wouldn’t sound as good

The first time I heard the argument about neck pickup position is maybe a year or two later when there were lots of 24 fret guitars on the market. To me the “sales talk” is the other way round to what you guys are saying. I remember hearing (to the effect) “the sweet spot is a myth” These things evolve though and what I’m thinking is salesmen started saying that there were 24 fret guitars with the pickup on the sweet spot - Like some magician has found a place where you can get the same sound as it being on the 2nd octave node!

I hope I've made sense in this post but one thing's for sure, if I make another guitar it will have the neck pickup on the "magic position"

cheers

Doug

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No comments? Do I have to pick on my own argument? (Or are you guys just getting sick of it?) I can easily poke holes in it!

What if you move the nut to the first fret? Or made the scale one fret longer? All the same vibrations will occur, the pickup is still the same distance from the bridge, its just a bunch of mathematics!

I just did the maths if you moved the nut to the 1st fret position. The nodes/antinodes are all on 148.46mm However what we want is the stronger vibrations (ie. the longer wavelengths) but even though the ones I’ve put up are directly related to the position of frets, they still aren’t very long. So I keep getting back round to the full string length having something to do with it

I’m still convinced that although you play a fretted note, the true 2nd octave node still exists even if its very weak (This is where the "railway track" idea comes in) My theory is, because the other nodes are close to it they would re-inforce each other resulting in the strongest nodal/antinodal point in the pickup region

Let me explain what I meant about railway tracks, what I had in mind was this. If someone hits a track with a sledge hammer, a person 5 miles away wouldn’t hear it unless they put their ear to the track. I’m theorising two things; (1) These types of sound waves exist in a string (and will have nodes) and, (2) The pickup will “hear” like putting your ear to the track

I’m at my wits end to think of ways of proving anything really but there has to be a scientific reason for the sound you get from having a pickup on the 2nd octave node to sound the way it does

Also I wanted to point out when I bought my first Les Paul in 1977 I don’t know if there were any 24 fret guitars around. I was just a 15yo kid who knew nothing and chose it purely by its shape. I wasn’t co-erced into buying it for any reason. I just pointed at a picture in a brochure and said “I want one of those” It was about 2 months later that I asked about 24 frets and it was explained to me that it wouldn’t sound as good

The first time I heard the argument about neck pickup position is maybe a year or two later when there were lots of 24 fret guitars on the market. To me the “sales talk” is the other way round to what you guys are saying. I remember hearing (to the effect) “the sweet spot is a myth” These things evolve though and what I’m thinking is salesmen started saying that there were 24 fret guitars with the pickup on the sweet spot - Like some magician has found a place where you can get the same sound as it being on the 2nd octave node!

I hope I've made sense in this post but one thing's for sure, if I make another guitar it will have the neck pickup on the "magic position"

cheers

Doug

How would the pickup detect longitudinal waves? How would they cause the magnetic field to change?

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How would the pickup detect longitudinal waves? How would they cause the magnetic field to change?
Good point, I suppose the longitudinal waves would propagate into lateral waves once the string is free to vibrate wouldn't they? Think about it, when you pluck a fretted note, how do the vibrations get past your finger through to the other side? And my knowledge of Physics is that vibrations on the other side will travel back and re-inforce the initial vibrations

Another important issue, the length of string behind the fret is muted by your finger. I think there's a law of Physics that goes " A string will resist attempts to stop it vibrating in its natural harmonic series" A way to prove this is by playing a string while damping it at the bridge. It still plays the same pitch untill you move your finger too far along or press too hard. My theory is that when the string can't vibrate laterally it carries on in longitudinal waves

The length of string behind the fretted note to the bridge will almost always be detrimental to the vibration of the notes you are trying to produce by these effects as the length of string behind the fretted note bears little harmonic relationship to it
Psw your comments are what got me thinking onto what I believe is the right track. But I have to point out that I'm talking about vibrations from the other side of the string, not the sound. The sound isn’t harmonious but the vibrations are, in a mathematical sense

Well yesterday I was doubting myself about the 2nd octave node being a "meeting place" for soundwaves. This occurs all along the string with even stronger nodal points, but what I realised today is that vibrations from behind the fret will only re-inforce frequencies equal or divisable to itself. This means that shorter wavelengths can become more prominent than longer ones. Frequencies that directly relate to the position of frets are all re-inforced at the second octave node, according to my knowledge of physics and mathematics

There's lots more I could say but I gotta go

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My opinion is that you guys are probably wasting your time approaching this from a theoretical perspective. I expect there's waaaay too much going on for you to realistically model mathematically without using some kind of complex computer simulation. For example: All this node/ anti-node stuff only applies to standing waves. Traveling waves are also involved... my guess would be that they are largely behind the 'attack', as I can only imagine picking a string creating traveling waves, that will then decay into standing ones. Interference between standing waves, traveling waves, and multiple harmonics of each makes the situation a lot more complicated.

If anybody was ever going seriously try to figure this out, then I propose approaching it empirically:

1. Take a les paul, and a pickup with the flattest possible frequency response (to be really rigorous, work out its response to different frequencies and de-convolute with the data later)

2. Figure out a way to make the position of the pickup variable. Ideally while still attached to the body. (This would be easier if you were going to deconvolute the frequency response of the pickup with your data later, as then the pickup could be made smaller (there would in principle be no need for it to even resemble standard guitar pickup, as it's effect on the sound would be being removed from the data)

3. Connect the pickup to a computer to record the sound. (I don't know how good the analogue-to-digital converters in sound cards are, so if they suck then find a good one)

4. Play every fret on every string, and record.

5. Repeat 4 for a variety of pickup positions (and ideally for various guitars!)

6. Analyse the data. Fourier transform it, fit functions to the data and so on.

7. You now have functions describing frequency response vs pickup position and vs fret for a given pickup position for a given string, and what ever other relations you want between those variables.

This scheme should be able describe the effect of pickup position only. The overall sound of the guitar would be influenced by many other things also... (pickups, strings etc) .. and if you wanted insight into the overall effect you would need to investigate those too.

Basically I think you are wasting your time with over-simplified pictures of something very complex.

It's like all these alternative medicines that will chose one aspect of the very complicated system that is the human body, (eg enzymes, or free radicals or "friendly bacteria"), and then decide that everything revolves around them... when reality, while they may indeed be a very important part of the system, they are just a small part of a very large system.

While in principle what you are saying may indeed be correct, I doubt you will ever be looking at enough of the full picture to get anything useful from this approach.

Also, hello again everyone! (I haven't posted here in ages because I've been very busy trying to get a decent degree)... only one exam left now :D .

Edited by Ben
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kinda offtopic, but...

A way to prove this is by playing a string while damping it at the bridge. It still plays the same pitch untill you move your finger too far along or press too hard.

At least I can hear a difference in the pitch of my acoustic when i dampen it. and no, im not pressing hard or too far from the bridge, actually i dampen the strings as close to the bridge as it can be done so that the guitar actually dampens....(And as light as it can be done on my guitar... I dont actually have to press the strings really... just place my hand slightly touching 'em...)

the difference definitedly isnt a too noticeable or distracting, but it can be heard. at least i can. at least on my acoustic(its quite crappy one though so it might be the reason of the pitch change... i just cant figure out how :D )

Edited by mikke
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My opinion is that you guys are probably wasting your time approaching this from a theoretical perspective...If anybody was ever going seriously try to figure this out, then I propose approaching it empirically...

Sounds like you're saying "Lets put this in the too-hard basket" LOL

I've been trying to find answers from physics, however I don't think you have to go to such great lengths to draw conclusions. Here's a little experiment I did that anyone can try (Some people may try this and not notice any difference in tone but I've done it several times over the past few days and I am convinced)

My Strat Copy has the neck pickup (Humbucker) roughly on the 2nd octave to the second fret and the inner coil is at the 2nd octave to the fifth fret. I put a cappo really tightly and very close to the second fret (to simulate a nut) and I did it also on the fifth fret (with the coils split)

Picture2156.jpg

In both cases I got that distinctive neck pickup sound and it demonstrates even the pickup closer to the bridge will achieve it as long as it's at ¼ the distance of the bridge to "nut" length

It also convinces me (when playing a fretted note) that vibrations behind the fret affect vibrations sensed by the pickup. When the cappo was on, I believe the vibrations re-inforced and when it was off, they were destructive

Here's something I learnt about tuning car stereos for SQ that I think is relevant. My head unit reproduces frequencies way above human hearing but they have an effect on the sounds you CAN hear. Also when tuning the EQ, sometimes it's possible to have a flat spot in your midrange which can be fixed by adjustments from a higher frequency (because they were cancelling the others out)

Think about the example they give in physics class where at a concert, in some seats the sound is great, while in others they can't hear much. In my opinion having the pickup at the 2nd octave node is like having a seat where the sound is just right

Edited by Crusader
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Sounds like you're saying "Lets put this in the too-hard basket" LOL

Essentially, yes. While the physics of each little component is graspable, overall there's just so much to take into account that you aren't going to easily get to any solid conclusions.

I've been trying to find answers from physics, however I don't think you have to go to such great lengths to draw conclusions. Here's a little experiment I did that anyone can try (Some people may try this and not notice any difference in tone but I've done it several times over the past few days and I am convinced)

My Strat Copy has the neck pickup (Humbucker) roughly on the 2nd octave to the second fret and the inner coil is at the 2nd octave to the fifth fret. I put a cappo really tightly and very close to the second fret (to simulate a nut) and I did it also on the fifth fret (with the coils split)

In both cases I got that distinctive neck pickup sound and it demonstrates even the pickup closer to the bridge will achieve it as long as it's at ¼ the distance of the bridge to "nut" length

It also convinces me (when playing a fretted note) that vibrations behind the fret affect vibrations sensed by the pickup. When the cappo was on, I believe the vibrations re-inforced and when it was off, they were destructive

The problem with your method is that it is very subjective, and your conclusions as to the causes of the perceived change in sound are pretty much just conjecture.

How do you know, for example, that this change in sound wasn't due to the mass of the capo changing the resonant frequency of the neck?

Here's something I learnt about tuning car stereos for SQ that I think is relevant. My head unit reproduces frequencies way above human hearing but they have an effect on the sounds you CAN hear. Also when tuning the EQ, sometimes it's possible to have a flat spot in your midrange which can be fixed by adjustments from a higher frequency (because they were cancelling the others out)

Apparently some people dislike mp3s for the same reason; they remove the frequencies higher than your ear can immediately detect.

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