Louder Passive Electronics

[stuartah]

Okay guys, this is my first post, but I will try and stay on topic (oh wait, just fell off <.<)

Okay, I have not been able to the math due to not being home, but I still have the schematics and I was wondering if the math and theory sounded plausible to anyone else.

Alright, the first part is getting the juice to run the circuit, and in using parallel circuits, I thought to tap the the point in which the guitar's output go to the pickup selector switch, or in the case of guitars with separate volume controls and tone pots, the tap point will be before these to maximize the voltage.

After the parallel taps, the now parallel signal will go through a series of transistors, five max in most cases (tapped humbuckers will need the five if there is 3 pickups). This should safely combine the signals without any cross into the original signal. If any of you can't visualize it, the first signal will be fed though a small resistor, maybe a 1K, into the base of the first transistor, while another signal is planted on the emitter (hope I didn't reverse the names for those electronic name savvy) From there the output at the collector will go into the base of the next transistor as the next signal will be added. I believe their will be a few small resistors added in their so as to keep the amperage down, but I am unsure as of yet.

The next thing we go into is a slightly more complex halfway rectifier circuit. As of yet I don't know if I can add a regulator, of if I do, if I need to make a rectifier. But to the more pressing matter, I thought I might put in a germanium diode for the cut off, to maximize the voltage (I know its a .5v difference). Next it'd go through the capacitor section, and this is where I still have to calculate which ones I will need, as I expect I will need several in parallel to ground. (probably 47uF, 4.7uF, .1uF, etc. Just some common cheapies that will need to be added) The reason as most might guess is that to get the caps fully charged at all frequencies of the guitar, capacitance adds when in parallel.

(this circuit can also be done in reverse, probably and be made to have a reverse voltage to power more like an op-amp)

At this point in time I think I should have a general battery output.

Okay, next I believe it is up to you to decide this new out put, like if you wished for an op-amp or in my case a few more transistors. If you were wondering I was planing take another series of transistors in parallel with this supply, and a few more simple resistors to reduce the amperage. And it should all be connected back into the circuit via a DPDT switch.

I think this circuit should simply work as a power amperage gain, and its gain will be based upon how hard you play, meaning it wont gain as much when softly playing. I should be able to have the math that says whether or not this works tomorrow, but if anyone else can see it right now, please say something.

[AndrewCE]

Okay guys, this is my first post, but I will try and stay on topic (oh wait, just fell off <.<)

Okay, I have not been able to the math due to not being home, but I still have the schematics and I was wondering if the math and theory sounded plausible to anyone else.

Alright, the first part is getting the juice to run the circuit, and in using parallel circuits, I thought to tap the the point in which the guitar's output go to the pickup selector switch, or in the case of guitars with separate volume controls and tone pots, the tap point will be before these to maximize the voltage.

After the parallel taps, the now parallel signal will go through a series of transistors, five max in most cases (tapped humbuckers will need the five if there is 3 pickups). This should safely combine the signals without any cross into the original signal. If any of you can't visualize it, the first signal will be fed though a small resistor, maybe a 1K, into the base of the first transistor, while another signal is planted on the emitter (hope I didn't reverse the names for those electronic name savvy) From there the output at the collector will go into the base of the next transistor as the next signal will be added. I believe their will be a few small resistors added in their so as to keep the amperage down, but I am unsure as of yet.

The next thing we go into is a slightly more complex halfway rectifier circuit. As of yet I don't know if I can add a regulator, of if I do, if I need to make a rectifier. But to the more pressing matter, I thought I might put in a germanium diode for the cut off, to maximize the voltage (I know its a .5v difference). Next it'd go through the capacitor section, and this is where I still have to calculate which ones I will need, as I expect I will need several in parallel to ground. (probably 47uF, 4.7uF, .1uF, etc. Just some common cheapies that will need to be added) The reason as most might guess is that to get the caps fully charged at all frequencies of the guitar, capacitance adds when in parallel.

(this circuit can also be done in reverse, probably and be made to have a reverse voltage to power more like an op-amp)

At this point in time I think I should have a general battery output.

Okay, next I believe it is up to you to decide this new out put, like if you wished for an op-amp or in my case a few more transistors. If you were wondering I was planing take another series of transistors in parallel with this supply, and a few more simple resistors to reduce the amperage. And it should all be connected back into the circuit via a DPDT switch.

I think this circuit should simply work as a power amperage gain, and its gain will be based upon how hard you play, meaning it wont gain as much when softly playing. I should be able to have the math that says whether or not this works tomorrow, but if anyone else can see it right now, please say something.

i dont understand what you're talking about. are you trying to boost your signal without a power source?

[stuartah]

yes, and I was trying to do so through simple amp gain, as I am not home where I can crunch the numbers

and I was doing a little crunching and realized that the end series of gain needs to have a probably a full rectification circuit. I can explain more tonight

[AndrewCE]

yes, and I was trying to do so through simple amp gain, as I am not home where I can crunch the numbers

and I was doing a little crunching and realized that the end series of gain needs to have a probably a full rectification circuit. I can explain more tonight

are you trying to put a passive circuit inside your actual guitar itself, that will turn up your amp's gain?

[Keegan]

Let us know how defying the law of conservation of energy goes for you. The signal is going to want to fall to ground and work has to be done to raise it above ground. In batteries a chemical reaction generates this work. In a passive circuit the mechanical energy of your arm is converted through the inductance of the pickups into electrical potential and you get sound.

So if you're talking about more output you either need batteries to push your signal to a higher voltage or more electromagnetic/mechanical energy(strumming harder, using stronger magnets, using more turns of wire).

Edited May 11, 2009 by Keegan

[stuartah]

Let us know how defying the law of conservation of energy goes for you. The signal is going to want to fall to ground and work has to be done to raise it above ground. In batteries a chemical reaction generates this work. In a passive circuit the mechanical energy of your arm is converted through the inductance of the pickups into electrical potential and you get sound.

So if you're talking about more output you either need batteries to push your signal to a higher voltage or more electromagnetic/mechanical energy(strumming harder, using stronger magnets, using more turns of wire).

Well if you have the caps their in the rectifier circuit, it cuts the power, to the RMS voltage, and say you have a 5Vp at the diode, you would now be producing a 3.535 Vrms DC voltage after the capacitors, so in theory, I'm not disobeying the laws of Physics, and in fact all I'm doing is increasing the amperage with all the parallel circuits. And I'm redirecting that amperage back into the main line through a few transistors or in the case that I'm finding out, an op-amp.

[erikbojerik]

If you just want to eliminate the batteries, use a stereo cable to send phantom power to your circuit.

[AndrewCE]

Well if you have the caps their in the rectifier circuit, it cuts the power, to the RMS voltage, and say you have a 5Vp at the diode, you would now be producing a 3.535 Vrms DC voltage after the capacitors, so in theory, I'm not disobeying the laws of Physics, and in fact all I'm doing is increasing the amperage with all the parallel circuits. And I'm redirecting that amperage back into the main line through a few transistors or in the case that I'm finding out, an op-amp.

[Keegan]

Well if you have the caps their in the rectifier circuit, it cuts the power, to the RMS voltage, and say you have a 5Vp at the diode, you would now be producing a 3.535 Vrms DC voltage after the capacitors, so in theory, I'm not disobeying the laws of Physics, and in fact all I'm doing is increasing the amperage with all the parallel circuits. And I'm redirecting that amperage back into the main line through a few transistors or in the case that I'm finding out, an op-amp.

The point is that you can only get out what you put in. All of the power(well, actually less because some is lost to heat) going into the circuit will equal the power coming out of it. There can't be a net gain or loss(excluding loss to heat). If you gain amperage, it's because you lost voltage, and vice versa.

You don't increase amperage with parallel circuits anyways. The current is divided equally among them, including your original circuit.

You might get it sound different, definitely not louder though.

[stuartah]

Okay guys, i just got done putting it in. While my original idea of just using transistors didn't work out too well (there was just a small amount of amplification) The big one that worked was the op-amp idea. it took me to the point of building a full rectifier circuit, but this was a success and when I stuck it in with the op-amp there is amplification, but the op-amp hit its rails so easily so their is room for adjustment.

[stuartah]

I'm currently having a lot of fun with this circuit, if its not obvious, but right now I'm trying to throw in a transformer to see what kind of deal I can pull out there.

If anyone wants to try this when I'm done, go ahead.

[Keegan]

O.o Definitely want to see a schematic for this. Either I don't know enough about electronics to understand how you could do this or you're full of it.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Keegan

[Paul Marossy]

O.o Definitely want to see a schematic for this. Either I don't know enough about electronics to understand how you could do this or you're full of it.

I have to also agree...

[psw]

Okay, I have not been able to the math due to not being home, but I still have the schematics and I was wondering if the math and theory sounded plausible to anyone else.

Nope...at least from what you have described and on principle is seems very implausible. Transistors and semi conductors are not passive components like inductors, resistors and capacitors. They require some power to run them...even if you were to find a way to get enough power from the pickup output itself, it would fluctuate at the least and would draw power from the output to run the components. The result would at best be a no loss no gain situation but in reality it would have to loose without external power sources.

There is potential to use transformers such as is done with the lace aluminitones for instance...but not really a gain as such. There is also potential for willing people to design circuits that require very little power and perhaps run for months from something like a watch battery maybe.

However, for the reasons given above...not really plausable...perhaps not even desirable!

pete

[Paul Marossy]

Not to mention that any passive circuitry you put on the output of passive pickups is going to load them down because they are high impedance devices. You will lose output power and clarity, especially in the higher frequencies. You'll be fighting the inductance of the pickups, which can be two to four HENRIES; and the impedance of an inductor actually goes up with frequency.

Trying to operate a circuit using only the voltages generated by the pickups themselves doesn't really fly, either. Really hot output humbuckers only put out around 1V or maybe 2V peak to peak before rapidly tapering off. I don't see how a full wave rectifier is going to do anything. Yeah, in a sense, your pickups are a source of AC but it's not going to work like you think. If you full wave rectify your guitar signal, all the bottom halves would be flipped over so they're identical to the top halves. There are two peaks/valleys where there was only one, so you would hear an octave up, not a louder signal. And then, it's not a pure sine wave, so you also get the harmonic series of the rectification, plus the cross-products of any multiple frequencies that were there. And there are also some losses, so some amplification is now required to make up for the those losses or to boost the signal.

An audio transformer, unless it is a really good one, will also load down the pickups and add more inductance. It will not make the signal any louder, either. They are used for impedance matching or isolation, not to boost a signal.

Which leaves you with an active circuit to boost the output without killing your high end. Something like the tried and true FET buffer/booster works, and presents a high impedance to passive guitar pickups.

I want to see a schematic...

Edited May 12, 2009 by Paul Marossy

[Tim37]

so basicaly what im getting is you trying to use a pickup as a generator to run your op amp?

[stuartah]

For the most part all of your guy's knowledge is correct, I will add in the 1vpp and 2vpp test and see what that outputs, the scematic is the same as a normal rectifier circuit, but since the frequencies are viable, I had to put in several caps in parallel instead of one 47uF

But I would like to say the people trying to explain the theory on inductors did give me a few more ideas to test.

[stuartah]

I'm not going to deny you guys are right, but at the same time, when I was looking at the op-amp output you could get some interesting OD sounds

[stuartah]

Okay guys, this is it:

simply the 3 power supplies represent the pickups, wile being wired in series for the normal signal, the signals are then tapped by a series of transistors, that amplify the the signal into each other. Next, two parallel diodes split the signal as it goes into a rectifier circuit. The number of caps are their due to capacitance adding in parallel and it takes out all the frequencies and forms it into a DC voltage. Next, a 5v zenor diode is added, pushing the voltage up to 5v by adding even more amps. The final outputs should be a near 5v positive with a small, very small glitch every so often. while the Negative side had more glitches, but stayed around -5v DC. These two outputs are then fed into an Op-amp who is also receiving the normal signal from the pickups. The op-amp then attempts to blast the signal to 5v in this case due to the high resistance on the negative feedback. In a normal guitar the op-amp should be hooked into a signal via a DPDT switch.\

The two oscilliscopes along the side are as follows:

Top: Output from supply and op-amp out

Bottom: DC voltages from the rectifier circuits

[stuartah]

solo frequencies:

Also, if anyone noticed, channel A of the top oscilloscope, was halved, this time they are even. Added in this also has different frequencies to follow. the one you are mostly looking at is the 5KHz frequency as the other two are too slow, but you can see the waves fluctuate. Next, what you can't see is that these higher frequencies do take time to charge up the caps, but when they do they work fine and the charge takes no more than one second.

[psw]

So...have you tried this only in a virtual world...or have you actually tried this?

[stuartah]

So...have you tried this only in a virtual world...or have you actually tried this?

I've only done this in virtual, but in theory it works, and when I measured the components the amperage maxes about 1mA

Next, anyone remember the ideal model of a zener diode? I kicked the two virtual zeners up to about 20v and dang it kicked the amps up to about 2mA and looking at the output it just blasted that thing to kingdom come

[psw]

I think you will find that in the real world you are not getting nice constant sine wave signals out of signals, excessive times to charge up those caps and then farting when the supply falling below as the signal decays...there seem to be quite a few fundamental flaws and what you appear to be getting from a sine wave is effectively a squarewave een in an ideal world with a very simple signal and constant form and with both pickups feeding it. Reality is simply not like that...massive changes between a big low chord and a high single not, huge changes as the frequencies increase...and you are working with AC signals and the caps will pass most of this rather than store them.

In the end that is a lot of electronics stuffing up the signal, all of which will rob from the actual output to the guitar and take from the "tone" and all apparently to avoid a battery...I still fail to see the point other than to avoid a battery, but you are adding so much stuff in there anyway you would need the kind of space in the guitar that a battery would take anyway as far as I can see.

Sorry if I sound too negative, but there comes a time to solder up an experiment and see what really happens.

Still...good to think about such things...you're not the first...and perhaps you may come up with some ideas from it that might well be worth pursuing more...

pete

[stuartah]

I think you will find that in the real world you are not getting nice constant sine wave signals out of signals, excessive times to charge up those caps and then farting when the supply falling below as the signal decays...there seem to be quite a few fundamental flaws and what you appear to be getting from a sine wave is effectively a squarewave een in an ideal world with a very simple signal and constant form and with both pickups feeding it. Reality is simply not like that...massive changes between a big low chord and a high single not, huge changes as the frequencies increase...and you are working with AC signals and the caps will pass most of this rather than store them.

In the end that is a lot of electronics stuffing up the signal, all of which will rob from the actual output to the guitar and take from the "tone" and all apparently to avoid a battery...I still fail to see the point other than to avoid a battery, but you are adding so much stuff in there anyway you would need the kind of space in the guitar that a battery would take anyway as far as I can see.

Sorry if I sound too negative, but there comes a time to solder up an experiment and see what really happens.

Still...good to think about such things...you're not the first...and perhaps you may come up with some ideas from it that might well be worth pursuing more...

pete

Yeah, thanks ^^

But the idea was just to simply give it a "beefier" sound not actually send it into OD every time it ran. The thought also was to put it into a DPDT switch design so you wont always have that OD signal.

My original design I think will somewhat work, but the beefing section is so little and like you pointed out its hard to measure the out put on a changing signal since the computer hates variable.

The one thing I did notice was that when removed the DC output slowly decase as it also slowly rises.

The main thing for this was to simply give a player something play around with like for a solo or something. And the other reason was the thought of the whole battery thing. The "nothing comes for free" saying applied here by taking more room in the guitar by never having to replace the batteries into a small compartment.

[stuartah]

I think you will find that in the real world you are not getting nice constant sine wave signals out of signals, excessive times to charge up those caps and then farting when the supply falling below as the signal decays...there seem to be quite a few fundamental flaws and what you appear to be getting from a sine wave is effectively a squarewave een in an ideal world with a very simple signal and constant form and with both pickups feeding it. Reality is simply not like that...massive changes between a big low chord and a high single not, huge changes as the frequencies increase...and you are working with AC signals and the caps will pass most of this rather than store them.

In the end that is a lot of electronics stuffing up the signal, all of which will rob from the actual output to the guitar and take from the "tone" and all apparently to avoid a battery...I still fail to see the point other than to avoid a battery, but you are adding so much stuff in there anyway you would need the kind of space in the guitar that a battery would take anyway as far as I can see.

Sorry if I sound too negative, but there comes a time to solder up an experiment and see what really happens.

Still...good to think about such things...you're not the first...and perhaps you may come up with some ideas from it that might well be worth pursuing more...

pete

Yeah, thanks ^^

But the idea was just to simply give it a "beefier" sound not actually send it into OD every time it ran. The thought also was to put it into a DPDT switch design so you wont always have that OD signal.

My original design I think will somewhat work, but the beefing section is so little and like you pointed out its hard to measure the out put on a changing signal since the computer hates variable.

The one thing I did notice was that when removed the DC output slowly decase as it also slowly rises.

The main thing for this was to simply give a player something play around with like for a solo or something. And the other reason was the thought of the whole battery thing. The "nothing comes for free" saying applied here by taking more room in the guitar by never having to replace the batteries into a small compartment.