Elixir Strings Not Grounded?

[Geo]

I just finished a bass and I have the classic buzz of an ungrounded bridge. Except, I grounded the bridge. When I touch the bridge, jackplate, etc., the buzz goes away. But apparently my Elixir strings are not conductive, because touching the strings doesn't change the buzz! I'm thinking it must be the protective coating. Has anyone else had this problem? Any ideas how to fix it?

Thanks.

[Samba Pa Ti]

id swap em for metal strings, daddario's might work better.

if they have a plastic coating on them maybe you could scratch it off under the bridge where they touch the saddles or somthing...

what strings are they exactly ive never heard of plastic coated ones and it seems a bit weird that they are non conductive unless they are nylon...

one thing that might be wrong is the jack socket could be wired backwards, that can make some weird grounding style issues.

[Paul Marossy]

Take a string off and use a continuity tester to check that. Or use a DMM to measure resistance from one end to the other. A normal string would be very close to zero ohms.

[Geo]

I tested the string with my multimeter. Set to the 20k range, with a probe on each end of the string (playing part of the string where the coating is), I read infinite resistance.

[elmo7sharp9]

I tested the string with my multimeter. Set to the 20k range, with a probe on each end of the string (playing part of the string where the coating is), I read infinite resistance.

The buzz disappears when you touch exposed metalwork because you're grounding yourself,

the source of the hum.

Even if you did expose some of the string's core material by cutting away the coating at the bridge saddles, your fingers would still be electrically insulated from the strings, so you'd be no better off.

You could:

1) Run a wire from any ground point on the guitar to any exposed area of flesh, to ground yourself.

2) Use regular strings.

3) Use active pickups - these usually don't require the strings to grounded.

You have to balance the (alleged) longevity of Elixir strings against the costs of buying and using them.

[Geo]

Even if you did expose some of the string's core material by cutting away the coating at the bridge saddles, your fingers would still be electrically insulated from the strings, so you'd be no better off.

You could:

1) Run a wire from any ground point on the guitar to any exposed area of flesh, to ground yourself.

Exactly what I've been thinking.

I just wish I had thought about this before spending $45 on them. Interestingly, I haven't had this problem at all on my electric guitars, which are currently strung with Elixirs. Oh well, live and learn....

Thanks for the help.

[Paul Marossy]

I tested the string with my multimeter. Set to the 20k range, with a probe on each end of the string (playing part of the string where the coating is), I read infinite resistance.

Interesting. Good to know that about these strings.

[ShadesOfGrey]

imo, if you have properly shielded the guitar and grounded the rest of the electronics, grounding the bridge / strings isnt that important.. especialy so if you have hum canceling pickups.

In any case, it is much safer for the player to not be part of an electronic circuit

[Geo]

imo, if you have properly shielded the guitar and grounded the rest of the electronics, grounding the bridge / strings isnt that important.. especialy so if you have hum canceling pickups.

In any case, it is much safer for the player to not be part of an electronic circuit

Probably true, but I have never been able to shield a guitar to the point of eliminating all noise. Usually I just get it to a low level I can live with, and part of that is grounding the bridge.

It honestly isn't too bad; when I start playing and gettin' funky , I don't really notice it. I think in a band setting, with cymbals sounding in the same freq range, it should be fine.

[Paul Marossy]

I have never been able to shield a guitar to the point of eliminating all noise.

Me, either. And I honestly don't think it's really possible.

[Geo]

I have never been able to shield a guitar to the point of eliminating all noise.

Me, either. And I honestly don't think it's really possible.

Even if the shielding is perfect, your body is still an antenna picking up all that junk. The moment you touch the strings (if the bridge isn't grounded), the junk goes into the strings, the pickup will pick it up through the strings, and the shielding isn't going to do any good... or that's my theory.

Forgot to add... I heard back from Elixir:

Hi George,

Thanks for your interest in Elixir® Strings. Our coating are non-conductive. Let me know if there are any additional questions or concerns.

Thanks and Regards

Elixir® Strings

W. L. Gore & Associates, Inc.

201 Airport Road

Elkton MD 21921 USA

Ph: 800.367.5533

Fx: 410.506.7692

Reply to: elixirstrings@wlgore.com

To place an order: esorders@wlgore.com

ELIXIR, NANOWEB, and POLYWEB are trademarks of W L Gore & Associates Inc

Edited April 30, 2010 by Geo

[justbecos]

What type of bridge are you using?

I would expect the ball end of the string where the only core of the string only goes round not to be covered with the coating. Therefore with a standard toploading bridge the coating would not be a problem. Unless I'm wrong in which case you would need to scraped part of the coating off the where the strings are held by the bridge

If it is a through body stringing you might need to try grounding the string ferrule instead (again assuming that the coating does not cover the ball end).

Hmm just read that back and not sure if I make any sense

[Geo]

What type of bridge are you using?

I would expect the ball end of the string where the only core of the string only goes round not to be covered with the coating. Therefore with a standard toploading bridge the coating would not be a problem. Unless I'm wrong in which case you would need to scraped part of the coating off the where the strings are held by the bridge

If it is a through body stringing you might need to try grounding the string ferrule instead (again assuming that the coating does not cover the ball end).

Hmm just read that back and not sure if I make any sense

No, I know what you're saying. That was my exact thought--there must be some part of the string that ISN'T coated and thus could be grounded. Well, yes, the core of the string is grounded by the ball-ends (this is a traditional P bridge). I know this because touching the tuners eliminates the buzz, as does touching the string behind the saddle, where the playing wraps end. The kicker is, the part of the string that you play on is coated, so even though the core is grounded (and I'm sure the wraps are too), the coating is coming between my fingers and the grounded metal of the string. There is no solution, other than scraping off the coating between the pickup and bridge, or getting normal strings.

[elmo7sharp9]

scraping off the coating between the pickup and bridge

Would result in non-harmonic string motion

(Mother Nature's Ring Modulator).

[Geo]

Just to continue this investigation... as the strings are breaking in, the buzz is getting quieter. Perhaps the coating is breaking down and I am making more contact with the grounded part of the string.

[Paul Marossy]

Just to continue this investigation... as the strings are breaking in, the buzz is getting quieter. Perhaps the coating is breaking down and I am making more contact with the grounded part of the string.

You know, the more that I think about this, the more enigmatic it is. In a regular guitar string scenario, if the bridge is grounded, then there shouldn't be any buzzing... in theory. I guess because the strings have a coating on them, they are now acting like antennas and picking up noise (EMI I assume), which would be happening apparently because they are not really grounded to the bridge and therefore that noise can't be shunted to ground as it normally would be.

[borge]

Just to continue this investigation... as the strings are breaking in, the buzz is getting quieter. Perhaps the coating is breaking down and I am making more contact with the grounded part of the string.

You know, the more that I think about this, the more enigmatic it is. In a regular guitar string scenario, if the bridge is grounded, then there shouldn't be any buzzing... in theory. I guess because the strings have a coating on them, they are now acting like antennas and picking up noise (EMI I assume), which would be happening apparently because they are not really grounded to the bridge and therefore that noise can't be shunted to ground as it normally would be.

But they are earthed:

Well, yes, the core of the string is grounded by the ball-ends (this is a traditional P bridge). I know this because touching the tuners eliminates the buzz, as does touching the string behind the saddle, where the playing wraps end. The kicker is, the part of the string that you play on is coated, so even though the core is grounded (and I'm sure the wraps are too), the coating is coming between my fingers and the grounded metal of the string. There is no solution, other than scraping off the coating between the pickup and bridge, or getting normal strings.

[Geo]

You know, the more that I think about this, the more enigmatic it is. In a regular guitar string scenario, if the bridge is grounded, then there shouldn't be any buzzing... in theory. I guess because the strings have a coating on them, they are now acting like antennas and picking up noise (EMI I assume), which would be happening apparently because they are not really grounded to the bridge and therefore that noise can't be shunted to ground as it normally would be.

My understanding is that the coating is preventing my body from joining the ground circuit, allowing me to act as an antenna radiating interference into the guitar (same scenario as with an ungrounded bridge).

The entire metal string is grounded--I know this because the ball-ends are touching the bridge, and because touching the tuners removes the buzz. It's the coating on the playing length of the string that keeps me from touching ground. The wraps at the far ends of the string are not coated, and touching the far ends of the string removes the buzz.

[Paul Marossy]

My understanding is that the coating is preventing my body from joining the ground circuit, allowing me to act as an antenna radiating interference into the guitar (same scenario as with an ungrounded bridge).

The entire metal string is grounded--I know this because the ball-ends are touching the bridge, and because touching the tuners removes the buzz. It's the coating on the playing length of the string that keeps me from touching ground. The wraps at the far ends of the string are not coated, and touching the far ends of the string removes the buzz.

Yes, but is the string exposed at the ball ends? I doubt that they are, and that would mean that the strings are not grounded. The buzz goes away when you touch the tuners because you become the path to ground, or maybe more like a big capacitor to ground.

[Geo]

Yes, but is the string exposed at the ball ends?

I believe so. Touching the portion of the string between the ball end and the bridge saddle removes the buzz, so the coating is not on the whole string, just the playing portion.

[Paul Marossy]

Yes, but is the string exposed at the ball ends?

I believe so. Touching the portion of the string between the ball end and the bridge saddle removes the buzz, so the coating is not on the whole string, just the playing portion.

I have my doubts about that. Why would you be getting a buzz with that brand of string then? I mean if the bridge is grounded, and if as you say, the strings are exposed at the ball ends then they should be having contact with ground and you shouldn't be getting a buzz at all. See what I am saying?

Not trying to be argumentative, it just doesn't make sense to me.

[elmo7sharp9]

Yes, but is the string exposed at the ball ends?

I believe so. Touching the portion of the string between the ball end and the bridge saddle removes the buzz, so the coating is not on the whole string, just the playing portion.

I have my doubts about that. Why would you be getting a buzz with that brand of string then? I mean if the bridge is grounded, and if as you say, the strings are exposed at the ball ends then they should be having contact with ground and you shouldn't be getting a buzz at all. See what I am saying?

Not trying to be argumentative, it just doesn't make sense to me.

This is because the purpose of the string ground is to ground the source of the hum - you!

You can prove this by plugging into an amp,

note the difference between touching and not touching the strings,

then - with absolutely no contact with the guitar - touch another ground point

(a socket on the amp would be fine) and hear the hum diminish to the same extent.

The player is a giant ball of hum and needs grounded.

[psw]

I had a set given me for the acoustic once...i got a second at first impressed, but no longer. There is a coating that makes them last longer, but the coating itself is subject o wear and mine started shredding around the frets.

Yes, you are grounding you...the turns in the tuning posts will make some contact as will the ball ends but the strings themselves will be insulated...so the bridge and tuners will be grounded. No real mystery.

However, an interesting design fault. And, the cost of these things, probably better to just change strings more often.

I wonder if bass players have this problem with cloth wound strings?

[Paul Marossy]

This is because the purpose of the string ground is to ground the source of the hum - you!

You can prove this by plugging into an amp,

note the difference between touching and not touching the strings,

then - with absolutely no contact with the guitar - touch another ground point

(a socket on the amp would be fine) and hear the hum diminish to the same extent.

The player is a giant ball of hum and needs grounded.

No, hum comes from the guitar picking up EMI which is all around it - things like motors, air conditioners, wall warts (which have transformers inside them which radiate lots of EMI), CRTs, etc. Single coil pickups don't need your body to hum, they do it all on their own. You don't have to be touching anything, they will do it all on their own.

Your example about an amp with a loose cord plugged into it is not the same thing as the grounding in a guitar, and the human body is definitely NOT the source of hum in an electric guitar.

[elmo7sharp9]

This is because the purpose of the string ground is to ground the source of the hum - you!

You can prove this by plugging into an amp,

note the difference between touching and not touching the strings,

then - with absolutely no contact with the guitar - touch another ground point

(a socket on the amp would be fine) and hear the hum diminish to the same extent.

The player is a giant ball of hum and needs grounded.

No, hum comes from the guitar picking up EMI which is all around it - things like motors, air conditioners, wall warts (which have transformers inside them which radiate lots of EMI), CRTs, etc. Single coil pickups don't need your body to hum, they do it all on their own. You don't have to be touching anything, they will do it all on their own.

Your example about an amp with a loose cord plugged into it is not the same thing as the grounding in a guitar, and the human body is definitely NOT the source of hum in an electric guitar.

Paul, I'm surprised at you, with your wide and deep knowledge of guitar electronics...

Think about this:

Guitar player wearing rubber-soled sneakers (so not grounded, himself)

experiences diminished hum when he touches the strings.

I was NOT referring to an amp with a loose cord plugged into it.

Humbucker/Single Coils are not part of it either - the issue affects both types of pickups

(unless your humbuckers are precisely wound to 100% cancellation).

The situation is: a guitar with grounded bridge.

You're still a big ball of hum that needs grounded because you're a local concentrator of EMI,

and especially mains hum from the wiring in the walls.

After you've grounded yourself, eliminating some low-frequency hum,

the noise that's still being heard is the direct radiation from wall warts, monitors, motors, flourescent lights and dimmer switches (a real nasty treble edge on those last two).

You needn't ground yourself to local amp ground to notice this effect...

Ground yourself to a water pipe and hear the noise (largely) disappear, too

(but don't touch any other exposed metalwork at the same time, for electrical safety!).

At the risk of muddying the waters:

A strong case for having a string ground is when your pickups don't have an electrostatic shield

(Strats, Humbuckers minus casings...) the un-grounded strings are an antenna for all the above-listed sources of EMI,

and the pickups will receive it.

EMGs, for example, have a brass electrostatic shield inside the plastic casing and are wound to precise 100% cancellation, so you can use them, noiselessly, without installing a string ground.

Edited May 6, 2010 by elmo7sharp9