Pickup Questions

[aggravated_alien]

I am about to start winding my own pickups I need to clear a few things up first.

*Is their a tonal difference between an unpolished bar magnet as opposed to a polished one?

*At lot of pickup makers seem to prefer enamel coated wire over poly coated wire is there a sound difference between the two providing the same gauge of wire is used?

*I have read somewhere that there are high and low quality magnets,

If this is true how can I tell a good one from a bad one.

Will lower quality magnets sound worse given the same type of magnet is used.

StewMacs pickup parts and kits are a rip off. Is there anywhere else I can buy this stuff from. The only other place I know of is Mojo Music Supply.

Thanks.

[SwedishLuthier]

First, its great to see that more and more people are getting into pickup winding. I’ll give youy my point of view, bit by bit:

*Is their a tonal difference between an unpolished bar magnet as opposed to a polished one?

Nope! There is a difference between magnet types for sure, but unpolished vs. polished…I have not experienced any. To me that is marketing hype

*At lot of pickup makers seem to prefer enamel coated wire over poly coated wire is there a sound difference between the two providing the same gauge of wire is used?

There are *a lot* of things that goes on in a pickup. Some things can be attributed to specific design factors (Bar magnets vs. rod magnets vs. steel poles and magnets and so on), some to winding “tricks” and yet some to choices of materials used. The general consensus among winders are that there is a difference in sound. The reason can be the difference in the thickness of the insulation (creating thicker or thinner coils) or dielectric constant between insulation material (tweaking the electric capacity of the pickup) but there is a noticeable difference.

*I have read somewhere that there are high and low quality magnets,

If this is true how can I tell a good one from a bad one.

Will lower quality magnets sound worse given the same type of magnet is used.

There are nothing like high or low quality magnets. There are only different types of magnets. If you know how to use a specific magnet, they will all produce a nice sounding pickup. If you have no clue of what you are doing, all magnets can end up in a bad sounding pickup. And what is a good sounding pickup? That is up to the customer. I have made pickups that I thought was the best I have ever done and the customer hated it. That learned me a thing or two about listening to the customer and fulfilling his needs, not shooting for something I like myself. And there is only one way to learn how to identify and handle different types of magnets; wind and listen, wind and listen, wind and listen…

StewMacs pickup parts and kits are a rip off. Is there anywhere else I can buy this stuff from. The only other place I know of is Mojo Music Supply.

I disagree. They are not. It is 100% true that you can get all the parts for a HB (lest assume we are talking HBs here, but the same thing goes for SCs), the baseplate, the keeper bar, the bobbins, the magnet, the spacer, the screws, the slugs and the wire for less than 25$. But the key here is quantity. For sure you can get cheaper parts if you buy directly from Asia. I was in need of some 40 pairs of HB bobbins and realized I could place an order in Korea for the same amount of money (including shipping) and get 800 pairs! But then I still need the baseplates, and all the other parts. You can get them too at a better price if you buy in bulk (that’s what SM does…). But if you only want a few sets there are no way that you will get a significantly lower price from one single place. OK I know someone will pop in with an evilbay link and say oh no, look, this guy sells for 18$! But that is in my book not a significantly lower price. What I mean is that I get the parts for a HB for … drum roll please…6 to 8$ depending on type. But I buy in bulk.

[aggravated_alien]

Thanks

[psw]

If you are starting out...and you feel teh cost is a bit high...you could perhaps try rewinding cheap pickups...they have the parts in them of course. There is also the advantage that you can get to hear them with all the factors in place (bobbins, magnets, etc) as per the "factory" and compare that to what happens when you rewind them...that way you get a feel for some of the things that go into pickup qualities.

Also, I think that one should have a pretty good idea about the way the things work, at least enough to see through the hype...and good ears, really go out and hear what a "PAF" is or whatever, not just the 'hype' or the resistance...find out what a great pickup sounds like compared to an average one.

It's good that people are getting into pickup winding, but it would seem that a lot of people see it as a business rather than a passion. Lot's of people want to be artists, not all of us are going to have talent for it, less still are going to be successful. Hype will only go so far, but in this 'trade' there is an explosion of hype and 'pretenders' as well as 'contenders'...I think people like SD were successful because they had the ears and experience with the real things...and listened to the customers and could actually get the results for them. Now, that's going to be hard to compete with.

I agree with SL, $25 bucks for all those bits in an HB, doesn't look to bad as a one off...but you know, it sounds like you have a lot to learn yet if you need to even ask if a shiny piece of steel is better than an old rusty one!

[aggravated_alien]

If you are starting out...and you feel teh cost is a bit high...you could perhaps try rewinding cheap pickups...they have the parts in them of course. There is also the advantage that you can get to hear them with all the factors in place (bobbins, magnets, etc) as per the "factory" and compare that to what happens when you rewind them...that way you get a feel for some of the things that go into pickup qualities.

Also, I think that one should have a pretty good idea about the way the things work, at least enough to see through the hype...and good ears, really go out and hear what a "PAF" is or whatever, not just the 'hype' or the resistance...find out what a great pickup sounds like compared to an average one.

It's good that people are getting into pickup winding, but it would seem that a lot of people see it as a business rather than a passion. Lot's of people want to be artists, not all of us are going to have talent for it, less still are going to be successful. Hype will only go so far, but in this 'trade' there is an explosion of hype and 'pretenders' as well as 'contenders'...I think people like SD were successful because they had the ears and experience with the real things...and listened to the customers and could actually get the results for them. Now, that's going to be hard to compete with.

I agree with SL, $25 bucks for all those bits in an HB, doesn't look to bad as a one off...but you know, it sounds like you have a lot to learn yet if you need to even ask if a shiny piece of steel is better than an old rusty one!

I thought initially that a unpolished magnet may be stronger than a unpolished one as a smooth clean surface transmits energy more efficiently than a dirty one.

And having read about pickup aging I though that this may be one of the ingredients in getting that aged sound it may only be a vintage correct thing.

At the end of it all I will have to hear these things for myself and then make up my own mind.

Edited June 4, 2010 by aggravated_alien

[SwedishLuthier]

I thought initially that a unpolished magnet may be stronger than a unpolished one as a smooth clean surface transmits energy more efficiently than a dirty one.

And having read about pickup aging I though that this may be one of the ingredients in getting that aged sound it may only be a vintage correct thing.

Yeah I see, but most of the rough cast magnets availible today actually have the business end (the end towards the keeper bar or the screws) polished...

You can very easily degaus a magnet if you belive in the hype about aged magnets. Magnets do loose a bit of their magnetic charge. But they do that in the first few hours after being charged. After that the doo loose their charge but that is minimal and nothing that will affect the sound of the pickupup. When looking at old magnets and especially magnets with lower than expected gaus levels you have to look at the magnets history. Like if someone have used an electric screwdriver close to the pickup (the magnetic field of the machins motor will alter the magnet) or similar things. In fact few magnets that are shipped fully charged arrive to me fully charged. They loose some 20% on their way to me (I guess X-rays in air transportation and similar things are to blame). Ánd that is fine with me. Then I can choose to leave them as is or recharge them to full potential. And that to me affect the tone (degree of charging) more than the surface of the magnet. Rememeber that wery litle of the magnetic field exi/enter the magnet through the (no-ploe) sides of the magnets.

At the end of it all I will have to hear these things for myself and then make up my own mind.

And that is so true. Wind and listen, wind and listen. That is the only way to go. And then you can decide for yourself if rough cast or smooth magnets of the same alloy and same degree af charging sound the same or if that does make a difference.

[Samba Pa Ti]

Then I can choose to leave them as is or recharge them to full potential.

do you charge your own magnets up ?

what equipment do you use ?

[SwedishLuthier]

A simple jigg with 4 Neodynium blocks in a C-shaped steel holder. Each magnet have a gaus level of over 5500 gaus. Brings alredy magnetized bar magnets up some 20%. Have the parts made to build an electrical "zapper" but havn't got the time for it and the current rig works...

[copperhead]

I am about to start winding my own pickups I need to clear a few things up first.

*Is their a tonal difference between an unpolished bar magnet as opposed to a polished one?

*At lot of pickup makers seem to prefer enamel coated wire over poly coated wire is there a sound difference between the two providing the same gauge of wire is used?

*I have read somewhere that there are high and low quality magnets,

If this is true how can I tell a good one from a bad one.

Will lower quality magnets sound worse given the same type of magnet is used.

StewMacs pickup parts and kits are a rip off. Is there anywhere else I can buy this stuff from. The only other place I know of is Mojo Music Supply.

thanks.

there is no one place to get perfect humbucker parts. stewmac parts are a little costly but you can make a ok sounding humbucker from there kit . now mojo sells kits aswell .stew mac screws sound pretty good ,and there keepers are ok . mojo has more variety and cheaper as for wire poly & plain enamel do have allot of similarities in sound i have made some great sounding pickups and i will continue to use poly . plain enamel is double the price as well if your new to winding i would not be messing with PE wire practice with solderon poly wire

[RM2488]

*Is their a tonal difference between an unpolished bar magnet as opposed to a polished one?

Nope, none.

*At lot of pickup makers seem to prefer enamel coated wire over poly coated wire is there a sound difference between the two providing the same gauge of wire is used?

Yes, there is. You see, a pickup is a kind of filter... the coating adds capacitance, and the thickness of the coating will also affect the coil size, which has an effect on the sound. Of course, you can make good pickups from both.

*I have read somewhere that there are high and low quality magnets,

If this is true how can I tell a good one from a bad one.

Will lower quality magnets sound worse given the same type of magnet is used.

Grade A crap that certain custom winders or shops propagate. Depends on what you want from the pickup. If you're looking for a soft, clean sound, then perhaps ceramic magnets would be "bad"... but good if you're going for a hot brassy sound. That is not the only criteria, a lot depends on the coil and polepieces as well, I've seen ceramic ones that were mellow and alnico ones that were harsh. Also bear in mind that there are several types of AlNiCo mags... I myself favour rare earth ones, usually Samarium Cobalt.

As you can see, many roads lead to Rome. Experiment, and you'll get the hang of it...

[aggravated_alien]

Hi again I am about to rewind a Humbucker for a friend i am going for a PAF like tone I want to also mismatch the coils like Gibson did on their Burstbucker models.

Which coil is the best one to add the extra turns to and is 100 extra turns too much or can I go more ?

[copperhead]

Hi again I am about to rewind a Humbucker for a friend i am going for a PAF like tone I want to also mismatch the coils like Gibson did on their Burstbucker models.

Which coil is the best one to add the extra turns to and is 100 extra turns too much or can I go more ?

i have heard both have been mismatched i would overwind the screw side as the slug side it more magnetic .i know some boutique winders that mismatch as much as 300 turns

[aggravated_alien]

Hi again I am about to rewind a Humbucker for a friend i am going for a PAF like tone I want to also mismatch the coils like Gibson did on their Burstbucker models.

Which coil is the best one to add the extra turns to and is 100 extra turns too much or can I go more ?

i have heard both have been mismatched i would overwind the screw side as the slug side it more magnetic .i know some boutique winders that mismatch as much as 300 turns

Thanks

[SwedishLuthier]

Re offset coils:

You can go way beyond 300 turns. Typically a HB have 5000 turns per coil. At 5% difference you will start to get a tiny bit more hum, but you can go all the way up to 10% (=500 turns) difference and still get a good hum cancellation.

Re PAF tone:

What do you think a PAF sound like? Before you ask how to make a HB sound like a PAF you need to start with what you think a PAF should sound like. IMHO a Gibson Burstbucker have nothing to do with a good PAF sound. But thats me. The thing is that no original PAF sound the same. They all differ slightly due to the production methods used. And that is a bit surprisingly as they were actually machine made 100% (if you hear a pickup winder claiming his HBs sound like PAFs because he hand wind them for that scatter wind that is proof that he have no clue about what he is talking about. He might still make nice sounding pickups, but he has no knowledge of the history of pickup...sorry for the rant...). So before asking "how to get a PAF sound" you need to define what a PAF should sound like. The PAF sound I like is always on the brighter side, meaning I do offset the coils and also wind the coils a bit on the thinner side, shoot for 4750 turns for the neck pickup, 4900 for the bridge. But you also need to examine the hardware parts. There is no way you will get good sound with inferior parts. Or is I might clarify that a bit: You will get a sound related to what parts you use. Every different make of pole screws, slugs, keeper bar, base plate etc affect the sound in their own specific way. If you rewind a pickup you can for sure change the sound but at the same time you are restricted to the sound the parts will allow you to have.

Re what coil to mismatch:

I do both. The slug coil often produce a slightly higher output due to the higher magnetic flux transfered through the slugs. At the same time the slugs add to the inductance of the coil, producing a slightly bassier tone. But you also need to consider if the pickup is for the neck or bridge position. In the bridge the coil closer to the bridge will give you a brighter sound compared to the one further away from the bridge. If you make that coil the hottest that is probably the most significant factor and the most important to consider. So when asking which coil to do the hottest you need to know what you are trying to achieve.

[kpcrash]

Not trying to steal any thunder, but SL, think you could post a little more on how you built this recharger? I've recently been looking at some plans for recharging pickup magnets in assembled pickups (just an experiment).

[SwedishLuthier]

Sure, but remember I still have to build the real thing. I have the parts here but haven't gotten around to do it yet so I cannot guarantee that it will work as I have planned, a lot of plans go down the drain . Anyway, its two pieced of flat steel bars/stock whatever it is called, with two alignment rods and a threaded rod welded to one side of each steel bar. The threaded rod is to adjust the gap. Pretty much like this one that a fellow winder from Germany made but with added alignment bars:

The power will come from a rectifier bridge directly over the main power (10A, 230V, 50Hz) and the coil wire will be a few hundred meters of 0.50mm diameter polysol wire (still working on that part). The rectifiers are to be mounted on a heat zinc and I will use a simple on/off switch, no fancy super large capacitors to store energy and no timers to limit the use of the "thing". Well, maybe a heat switch embedded into the coil to be sure...and a timer might also be a good thing. Just remember that this is not your ordinary guitar electronics. This is high power stuff. Do not attempt this yourself if you do not feel that you have 100% knowledge of what is going on here.

Or do you mean my current charger? That is dead simple. a vise, four super neo magnet blocks (not discs) and thats it. Adjust the gap by turning the handle of the vise and be sure to mot touch the neos while moving the bar magnet or completed fender style pickup back and forth between the neos.

[RM2488]

A quick and dirty charger I use (rarely) is easy, if you're willing for a little bit of expense. I bought a D-Clamp (one with 4 inches of movement, and two HUGE Samarium Cobalt magnets. I used Araldite (Very high strength Epoxy) to stick them to the clamp, one on the rotating bolt and one on the stationary arm. Then I glued very thin pieces of ply on them. It works perfectly well as it is. I don't have pictures, but I can try my hand at ASCII art:

..........____

..........|___|

............\\

|||||||||\\||||

||..........\\

||.........|M|

||.........==

||

||

||

||.........==

||.........|M|

||.........__

||||||||||||||||

It's very rough, but I think fairly clear- The two M's are the magnets, the slashes are the screw, and the equal signs are the ply. All you have to do is place the polepieces between the screw and the other magnet, and tighten it. Simplicity

EDIT: Ignore the dots, I had to add them 'cause it eliminates multiple spaces. Now this is why you should use "preview"

Edited June 20, 2010 by RM2488

[kpcrash]

Thanks very much to both of you!

[aggravated_alien]

Re offset coils:

You can go way beyond 300 turns. Typically a HB have 5000 turns per coil. At 5% difference you will start to get a tiny bit more hum, but you can go all the way up to 10% (=500 turns) difference and still get a good hum cancellation.

Re PAF tone:

What do you think a PAF sound like? Before you ask how to make a HB sound like a PAF you need to start with what you think a PAF should sound like. IMHO a Gibson Burstbucker have nothing to do with a good PAF sound. But thats me. The thing is that no original PAF sound the same. They all differ slightly due to the production methods used. And that is a bit surprisingly as they were actually machine made 100% (if you hear a pickup winder claiming his HBs sound like PAFs because he hand wind them for that scatter wind that is proof that he have no clue about what he is talking about. He might still make nice sounding pickups, but he has no knowledge of the history of pickup...sorry for the rant...). So before asking "how to get a PAF sound" you need to define what a PAF should sound like. The PAF sound I like is always on the brighter side, meaning I do offset the coils and also wind the coils a bit on the thinner side, shoot for 4750 turns for the neck pickup, 4900 for the bridge. But you also need to examine the hardware parts. There is no way you will get good sound with inferior parts. Or is I might clarify that a bit: You will get a sound related to what parts you use. Every different make of pole screws, slugs, keeper bar, base plate etc affect the sound in their own specific way. If you rewind a pickup you can for sure change the sound but at the same time you are restricted to the sound the parts will allow you to have.

Re what coil to mismatch:

I do both. The slug coil often produce a slightly higher output due to the higher magnetic flux transfered through the slugs. At the same time the slugs add to the inductance of the coil, producing a slightly bassier tone. But you also need to consider if the pickup is for the neck or bridge position. In the bridge the coil closer to the bridge will give you a brighter sound compared to the one further away from the bridge. If you make that coil the hottest that is probably the most significant factor and the most important to consider. So when asking which coil to do the hottest you need to know what you are trying to achieve.

To me a PAF style humbucker has always been a low output humbucker with good clarity that is good for classic rock and blues tones, I should have just said that it would have been less confusing.

Thanks for the tips I am not really aiming for a specific sound I think I remind in the guidelines just about anything I do will sound better than the stock pickups which are Epiphone Alnico Classics.

His guitar is a Epiphone Les Paul Classic Plus I made a unbleached bone nut for it I plan on, when the pickups have been finish to completely rewire the guitar and later on when he can afford it replace the Bridge and Tailpeice with a Faber Tune-o-Matic Bridge and Aluminum Tailpeice at the moment he is playing with a 1x12 combo with EL34s which I want to mod for him in the future.

[SwedishLuthier]

OK, then my suggestion is that you do the bridge with 4800 turns for the screw coil and 4900 for the slug coil or possible 4900 for screw coil and 5000 for the slug side depending on how hot you want the bridge to be, and the neck one with 4600 for the screw side and 4800 for the slug side or a tad more depending on output needs.

Why the slug side always hotter? a bridge HB with the screw side might sound a bit to harsh/thin and the opposite for a neck HB. This is a good starting point (I'm mad, giving away this much trade secrets ). It will for sure enhance the sound of the pickups. Good luck and report back about the result.

[aggravated_alien]

I have a quick question do I need to sand the insulation of the enamel coated wire or will the soldering iron melt the insulation off when you join the wires ?

[SwedishLuthier]

If you have traditional enamel coated wire (Plain Enamel, PE) you need to sand that of. Take some time to practice. It take some skills and you don't want to sand of the starting wire... Use 1200 grit paper folded and lightly pinch the wire between that. Stop as soon as you see the copper shine through. If there is a tiny bit enamel left the solder will burn that away. I have also heard people using a lighter to burn the coating away, but I always end up burning off the wire when trying.