Built Vs Assembled

[Custom Built Guitars]

so I log onto facebook and see a regular customer...who buys unfinished guitar kits from me adds me as a friend. I look at his pics...and there are 2 of the guitars I sold him unfinished... assembled and finished. He claims he "built " them. Gives gfs credit for the parts.... but no meantion that I actually "built" the guitars. He simply finished and assembled them. I made the necks, I made the bodys. Kinda irritates me A LOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And all his "friends" saying...."great job building those". When I BUILT THEM! Not sure what to do here. I think I'll take the high road, call him out and forgo any more money from this poser........

[killemall8]

Thats low. I would correct him instantly, and take credit for what you did. He ASSEMBLED, not built.

[SwedishLuthier]

You just need to make your mind up how bad you need this guys cash. Pride has ruined many nice businesses...

[psw]

Get a 'friend" to ask him about the bodies, maybe if he could build something similar to entrap him into either telling the truth or claiming credit for "building them" himself.

People have different definitions of "building" guitars you know. It's one thing to carve out a body from a piece of wood, another to make a good neck especially if slotted and headstock. But there is also an art to "assembling" and finishing a guitar as well.

A lot of people "build guitars" from parts, me included. I don't have the resources to do fine gloss painted finishes or the tools or skill to do fretwork beyond what can be easily bought as parts. If there was something particularly "original" in the design say of the neck or body that you can make claim to, hmm. If the bodies and neck were made to a standard (say a strat neck) or to the buyers specs and design. It is stretching things a little, though still a bit foul, to say who "built things.

My guitars have all tended to be unique instruments though I did not make the bodies or frets generally. I did conceive of the features, many of them "original" and obtain or build rare parts, sometimes I have had bodies painted for me by professional spray painters even. But, the conception and the realization and a lot of the "work" was still my own and to that extent "I built them" but never claim that I physically ran the router around a plank of ash into the shape of a tele for instance.

But yeah, beware "facebook friends" and perhaps find a way of getting him to fess up or lie openly before getting too mad about things. There are pretenders everywhere, you would think that making a guitar to your specs, finishing a guitar well, or even a setup or wiring thing would be enough, but alas, not always so. many people get involved in this kind of activity for the kudos, sometimes because it's easier than playing the darn things!

But hey, if he's giving GFS credit for parts, sounds a little 'low brow' in the custom guitar market. Oil finish by chance?

I hear you, but I would be interested in the "design"...yours, his, or did you both steal it from fender or gibson or PRS for instance. No "law' was broken and to many if they buy parts from warmouth or whoever, they still are building the things...do warmouth get upset about not being 'credited' for all the guitars that they "built" that others take claim for, or do they simply chalk that up to another "sale" and hope for more.

My inclination would be to get some kind of 'entrapment' in order to see the extent of the 'deception'...he may come straight out and give you a big fat plug if called on where he got the bodies from...so a win. If not, you know decisively where he stands, can choose to elevate the prices to him or not sell in future perhaps, and call him out publicly as well perhaps...if he lies. But ideally, you'd be 'looking for a win' and that would be that if people like the 'guitars' he voluntarily gives you a great big plug. But you know...there are a lot of details missing from this scenario...who put up the specs and design for instance, if you are selling parts, you have to expect that the buyer is going to "build" something from it. You may wish in future to ask that customers credit your hand in things, but there is no compulsion to doing so. It's not "right" but what can you really do about such things? Don't sell guitar parts?

[WezV]

i know a lot of professional builders who ship out work with no public mention of it. Some have bodies and necks made by other people and dont mention it, its not uncommon. Some people are happy with this arrangement, if you are not then i suggest you dont deal with him again.

I do part builds occasionally and still refer to them as my builds when done, although i am usually open about where the parts came from - most are not

look at someone like Nash

http://www.nashguitars.com/

see if you can find any mention on his website that you are buying an allparts/warmoth/other parts build... its on there, but not made clear in the descriptions of instruments

[Mender]

i know a lot of professional builders who ship out work with no public mention of it. Some have bodies and necks made by other people and dont mention it, its not uncommon. Some people are happy with this arrangement, if you are not then i suggest you dont deal with him again.

I do part builds occasionally and still refer to them as my builds when done, although i am usually open about where the parts came from - most are not

look at someone like Nash

http://www.nashguitars.com/

see if you can find any mention on his website that you are buying an allparts/warmoth/other parts build... its on there, but not made clear in the descriptions of instruments

Actually, Nash does admit that he assembles the guitars from ready made parts. I think he has to put it on his website to avoid any possible legal complications.

Nash is not a luthier and these guitars are just assembled from parts.

By far my favorite subject that people get all upset about. The above statement is 100% true. I could no more cut down a tree and make a guitar out of it than I could dance ballet (though my wife likes when I try). I would not want to anyway as it does not interest me. I have a great respect and admiration for those who can, but it is not what I want to do.

In my opinion, unless you are making guitars with set necks, and actually making the bulk of the parts you use, then you are assembling guitars from parts. Now, the big difference between me and many of my colleagues, competitors and the like, is that I actually admit to not making my necks and bodies. Very few manufactures make their own wood parts unless they are in the top two tiers of guitar makers. It is not my goal to "out" anyone so I will not be specific, but you may be quite surprised at who makes what for who. Read on....

...Where do the bodies and necks come from?

I use several OEM suppliers that do not do much business with the public. They are in the USA, however I will not name them. This I do for a couple reasons. I once had a supplier stop selling to me once they were named. Their biggest customer for raw parts is FMIC and they felt some pressure to make a decision about selling me or FMIC. Though I was doing some respectable numbers with them, certainly I will never come close to spending what FMIC does, so I totally understood. But I learned a valuable lesson there and it has nothing to do with not wanting the public to know. The other reason is that they generally do not want to deal with retail sales (like selling one neck at a time to a private individual) so in most cases, these companies would prefer to not be mentioned.

I will certainly use some of the obvious retail neck and body makers to fill in a piece here and there, but not more than a couple bodies or necks a year - it does not fit our business model. We build about 100 guitars a month so these OEM suppliers ship standing orders to us every 4-8 weeks, depending on the product - certainly not a service that any of the retail parts companies is set up to do. This allows both the supplier and the builder to anticipate and control work loads, product flow and man hours. In the past as we were building the business and the numbers were not so steady, we did use more obvious retail makers often, so there will be Nashguitars out there with necks and bodies with those markings.

He refuses to name the companies he buys from, but doesn't deny he only assembles them. http://www.nashguitars.com/IMHO.htm

[WezV]

read what you quoted from me - the bit where i say 'its on there'. my point is that its not something you would notice till delving deeper into the website. i.e. you have to go through two non-specific links to find it. Like he has to say it because its mentioned on so many forums and for any legal complications but he is still not comfy talking about it upfront

I dont really care. the guitars he assembles and relics are really nice. and i myself see little point making things which can be brought in quicker, easier and cheaper - as long as the quality is there, which it really is with these parts makers

its also a nice way of avoiding being sued - can fender sue you for making copies when you are using licensed parts?

[Mender]

read what you quoted from me - the bit where i say 'its on there'....

Oops! I missed that. Not fully awake yet

[Custom Built Guitars]

I'll answer as many questions as I can remember. Parts builds are fine. We all buy certain parts for builds. But this guy gives credit to gfs, wilkinson, etc. And no he did a nitro paint job. Not a very good job polishing it though. Pretty scratched up with fine sandpaper scratches. Yes Wez...I've seen your parts builds, and you give credit to the parts (bodys, necks etc). As have I when I haven't made a neck. And there is nothing wrong with buying bodys or necks. Just be honest and give credit to the builder.

One thing I did notice in his picture of the guitar is it has a set neck. I made the body and neck as a bolt on, per his request, and he was going to drill the bolt holes. It is clearly set. I'm simply going to ask him about the mods he made to the body and neck to make it a set neck. And make it clear to his "friends" that he commissioned me to build it.

[Custom Built Guitars]

I also would care if he just said " I have a builder make the bodys and necks for me" and not name me. At least it's honest. Claiming you built something you didn't build is bogus...plain and simple.

[Muzz]

I also would care if he just said " I have a builder make the bodys and necks for me" and not name me. At least it's honest. Claiming you built something you didn't build is bogus...plain and simple.

If I were you I would be waiting in glee for the time I could razz him up about it in front of all his friends at the pub and see how deep a shade of crimson I could get his face to go But I would just laugh about it, there's a lot worse things someone could do.

[Custom Built Guitars]

well I got my answer as to the mods he made to set the neck. No he did'nt add to the neck (other than a heel), so he also didn't route the neck pocket deeper. He drilled four 3/8 holes and inserted dowels. Thats his idea of a set neck . He can have 100% of the credit for that build.

[Southpa]

Post your own pics of your work on facebook and include the items you sold him. Then his online "friends" can determine for themselves what kind of bs he is pushing.

[Tim37]

first off i am gonna say i dont conisder my self a builder. i personaly dont think you can call your self a builder until you build your own neck. but thats me.

[Custom Built Guitars]

first off i am gonna say i dont conisder my self a builder. i personaly dont think you can call your self a builder until you build your own neck. but thats me.

maybe many of you missed my initial point. This guy gave credit to all the parts manufacturers except me. He pointed out the pickups were gfs, the hardware wilkinson..etc. Then he said he built the guitar. Well I hand cut every fret slot, I hand radiused the fingerboard, I carved the neck, and I routed the body. Therefor in my eyes, and any other logical persons eyes, I built the guitar. He finished it, assembled it, and flat out ruined it by setting the neck with four 3/8 inch dowels. And yes, the neck route is still 5/8 deep.

[Tim37]

well can look at it this way when it falls apart because of his "set neck" your name isnt attaced to the guitar.

[Custom Built Guitars]

well can look at it this way when it falls apart because of his "set neck" your name isnt attaced to the guitar.

and it will. Him admitting that alone tells anyone who knows anything about guitars that he didn't build it. And yup....he can have all the credit. Real shoddy workmanship on his part.

[VesQ]

Can you get any pics of what he did ?

[sdshirtman]

This situation would kinda erk me also. I always smirk when I see someone posting a "guitar build" when they're really just assembling parts. They should call it a "guitar assembly" IMHO.

Anyways, if you call him on it there is the possibility he might not ever order from you again. Who is it really hurting? There a lot of people doing what you do out there. I think the bottom line is do you want to potentially sacrifice a customer for pride? Your making money doing what you like. I'd consider myself lucky.

Just my 2 cents.

[sam_c]

Ive just started learning to build really. Ive setup and rewired guitars and basses for friends for a long time, but also assembled project guitars for myself. just learning the different steps along the way really and getting a guitar out of it everytime I learn to do something. Rather than buying a pile of figured maple and coming here to ask what scale length means , I thought building a guitar out of parts would be a good introduction to it.

The last one I made, I actually used a body and neck 'core' from some old washburn stock. Basically parts that have come straight off the cnc machines. I had to do alot of work to it (alot of work for me anyway) such as alter the TR channel, make a fillet strip, glue on the fretboard, install inlays, learn how to fret a neck, learn how to dress frets, carve the neck to final shape, install the nut and then finish sand it and apply the finish. Sure, ive still got alot to learn, but I think parts builds have their place, especially when you are starting out.

BUT, what this guy has done is not right. the build I mentioned above was for a friend and he knows exactly what work I did and what I didnt do. What is slightly annoying is that he has given a few ppl the impression that I actually made it from scratch. That makes me feel awkward when I have to correct them and say "well, I prob did less than half the work really"

I am starting my own from scratch builds though, but I also have some more of the old stock parts to use. I mean, theyre already guitar shaped....so someones got to finish them off right?

[Custom Built Guitars]

Can you get any pics of what he did ?

I've seen pictures of the guitar, but you can't see the dowels. I only know they are there because he told me....

[Custom Built Guitars]

This situation would kinda erk me also. I always smirk when I see someone posting a "guitar build" when they're really just assembling parts. They should call it a "guitar assembly" IMHO.

Anyways, if you call him on it there is the possibility he might not ever order from you again. Who is it really hurting? There a lot of people doing what you do out there. I think the bottom line is do you want to potentially sacrifice a customer for pride? Your making money doing what you like. I'd consider myself lucky.

Just my 2 cents.

it's not about pride. It's about right and wrong. It is wrong to claim someone elses work is yours. If I were a writer it would have been plagerism.

Yes, there are a lot of people who do what I do, and there is an entire world full of potential customers..............

[sdshirtman]

This situation would kinda erk me also. I always smirk when I see someone posting a "guitar build" when they're really just assembling parts. They should call it a "guitar assembly" IMHO.

Anyways, if you call him on it there is the possibility he might not ever order from you again. Who is it really hurting? There a lot of people doing what you do out there. I think the bottom line is do you want to potentially sacrifice a customer for pride? Your making money doing what you like. I'd consider myself lucky.

Just my 2 cents.

it's not about pride. It's about right and wrong. It is wrong to claim someone elses work is yours. If I were a writer it would have been plagerism.

Yes, there are a lot of people who do what I do, and there is an entire world full of potential customers..............

Everyone has his own limits. if thats how you feel then I'd privately let him know how you feel and ask him to change his post and give you the credit you want.