Project The Wolf

[verhoevenc]

Yeah, Drak has been called far worse! lol

Chris

[westhemann]

I guess you are one of the 4 friends Bionic Dave mentions.

Actually the IP is the same as "Bionic Dave"..so either it is another household member or Dave himself.As far as all of the hissy fits by various parties,I have no opinion,other than I think some in this generation of "young adults" may be just a bit spoiled and want it all their way...life isn't all like Burger King,now is it?

[avengers63]

Nice catch on that one Wes. I fully respect everyone´s opinion here. Drak, just want to mention, this was not the first time Dave has ever done similar comments. But I feel that displaying such an attitude towards anyone entering GOTM or how they wish to vote is completely out of line. I will stand my ground and happily explain myself if such thing is necessary.

While I do agree that GOTM is largely a popularity contest, I have to agree with Mex's impression of the remainder of the attitude and related posts. I've been quite open in the past about GOTM, and I'v had quite a few WTH thoughts, and maybe comments (I can't remember), about how the voting went, but there's never a need to insult the other voters personally.

In all honesty, it's probably in poor taste to even air your WTH thoughts publicly. But... so long as they don't become insulting or harassing, they're still just griping in my book, and griping is still OK. The sour grapes might cost you in the future, but that's the way it goes in a popularity contest.

And yes, Drak has been called much worse. But the truth is that action HAS been taken against his detractors. It's been handled by PMs from the mods and deleting of the offensive posts in stead of suspensions. Funny thing with that one.... Drak's offensive posts never seem to get deleted. Just sayin'.

[D E S]

I guess you are one of the 4 friends Bionic Dave mentions.

Actually the IP is the same as "Bionic Dave"..so either it is another household member or Dave himself.As far as all of the hissy fits by various parties,I have no opinion,other than I think some in this generation of "young adults" may be just a bit spoiled and want it all their way...life isn't all like Burger King,now is it?

Household user. I've been here for a year just an observer. But your a great detective Wes. A better detective then a builder thats for sure.

Nice catch on that one Wes. I fully respect everyone´s opinion here. Drak, just want to mention, this was not the first time Dave has ever done similar comments. But I feel that displaying such an attitude towards anyone entering GOTM or how they wish to vote is completely out of line. I will stand my ground and happily explain myself if such thing is necessary.

Yeah for some reason you've had a hard on for Dave every sence he joined the forum Mex. Makes me question your sexuality.

There's no point in banning him from posting. If you read the post he clearly gives you his intentions to never come back you Tard. There now you can suspend me or ban the IP.

Edited October 6, 2010 by D E S

[masterblastor]

...I guess the level of maturity runs the same in the whole family? ...

As well as the exact same writing style right down to gramatical errors.

LOL

The guy is pretending to be someone else that is sticking up for himself? Holy Hell I love this site. Yous guys are a freaking riot

All that aside, I don't vote for GOTM since I don't have a shop right now. I don't deserve to have an opinion if I'm not activly building.

[verhoevenc]

Dave, this is not looking good for you. We've had our differences in the past, and have, to my knowledge, gotten around them as time went on. I hold no ill will towards you. THAT SAID, your friend is not doing you ANY favors. Whether he's you or your friend is irrelevant. The company you hold says a lot about yourself. Also, the fact that you would not kindly asking him NOT to post things of this sort is also a reflection upon yourself. If you thought GOTM was a popularity contest before, I wish you the best of luck with your future submissions.

Chris

[Johnny Foreigner]

I'd never seen this side of Dave before. I'm a little shocked.

[WezV]

But Like I said before it's a Popularity contest and I'm not popular because I state the truth.

ah, this old chesnut!

i always wonder about posts like this.

I believe i have always gone to great lengths to state the truth in the GOTM feedback - less so recently because i have less time available, but being openly critical of others work has not prevented me winning.

part of me really wants to say 'if you want to win - build better guitars', but i dont think thats really true. What i will say is, if you want to win - build more interesting guitars. And that doesnt mean i am calling anyones guitars boring, but i reckon it tends to be the most interesting or unique, rather than most professional or most wood porn that consistently wins!

this month being a case in point. As far as i am concerned the dimple was the 'best' guitar, the one i would most like to play, as far as i can tell without playing it. But the ero was the most interesting because of one unique feature and it won.

anyway, i am not entering anything for a while because i agree that its time for others to rack up some wins. If we had more 3+ winners entering frequently then it might make sense to split the competition

[sam_c]

anyway, i am not entering anything for a while

ahhh Wez, I was going to paint a guitar blue and get you to enter GOTM on my behalf aswell. Im bound to win then?? right??

(joking btw)

[Drak]

I don't know Dave or his builds much for that matter, I DO like that burl he's working on for sure, but no one should be suspended for saying the word 'tard', whether you like them or not should make no difference if you're a quality Mod.

But, I probably don't know the whole story so I'll leave it alone from here.

<edit: take it to PM if you have to deliberate this, not in public.>

Edited October 7, 2010 by Prostheta

[Johnny Foreigner]

no one should be suspended for saying the word 'tard'

There is, of course, a difference between saying a particular word, and calling someone a name by using that same word.

And also important to bear in mind that while the word in question is relatively inoffensive in the US, it most certainly is not in other parts of the world. In the UK if you called someone that in a work environment you'd be fired on the spot, no question. It's the same level as the n-word and the f-word.

[Drak]

And also important to bear in mind that while the word in question is relatively inoffensive in the US, it most certainly is not in other parts of the world. In the UK if you called someone that in a work environment you'd be fired on the spot, no question. It's the same level as the n-word and the f-word.

Interesting, I did not know that.

[FireFly]

[edit]

Nevermind

Edited October 6, 2010 by FireFly

[westhemann]

Sorry Moth..I deleted my post before you posted...I just thought on hindsight it was getting too close to childishness..enough of that here already.

But thanks...I will be sure to step on you with them if you ever come to Texas

[IPA or death]

Hoo boy, did I open a can of worms here. I really thought it was constructive criticism, however it may have come off. Like I said, I really like his builds including this one, but the Tortoise didn't particularly speak to me. Not to say it wasn't well done, it just wasn't my cup of tea, and I was giving some insight into why he might not have garnered enough votes to win that GOTM. All it was was my opinion, nothing more. But I'll be sure to keep those as just thoughts in the future 'cause I darned sure don't want to insult anyone who puts themselves and their work out there for everyone to judge. I do apologize for any hurt feelings.

As to what I've built and who I am to judge, well I guess I'm just an ordinary guy . I don't build guitars to sell, just for the fun of it. And they aren't flawless, ground-breaking, or particularly innovative. You don't have to look too closely to see flaws on my stuff. That's why I don't enter them in GOTMs: they just aren't good enough. I've never put a build thread on here because I'm terrible at remembering to take pictures along the way and even worse at adding them to posts . But if I ever do a good enough job on one to enter or just do better with the pic-taking, I'll do it and I'll try to take constructive criticism in stride.

Once again, sorry for the hard feelings. I'll keep it to myself from now on.

[Drak]

I don't build guitars to sell, just for the fun of it.

And they aren't flawless, ground-breaking, or particularly innovative.

You don't have to look too closely to see flaws on my stuff.

That's why I don't enter them in GOTMs: they just aren't good enough.

It's exactly for guys like you that the GOTM was invented.

[WezV]

I'll keep it to myself from now on.

dont - if you have an opinion on a guitar then post it.

they have put it on a public forum and once you do that you have to expect the encouragement, praise and indeed scrutiny that the forum is based on

if people expect people to just 'oh wow' everything then a specialist forum like this is NOT the place to post it

[verhoevenc]

I'll keep it to myself from now on.

dont - if you have an opinion on a guitar then post it.

they have put it on a public forum and once you do that you have to expect the encouragement, praise and indeed scrutiny that the forum is based on

if people expect people to just 'oh wow' everything then a specialist forum like this is NOT the place to post it

I agree with Wez. I think we need MORE critical posts. No offense (and I thus won't be putting names down) but we see some SHADE-Y guitar builds that get some HUGE praise. If someone builds something with odd proportions, questionable structural integrity, etc. and people keep throwing "AWESOME MAN!" at them, then they're never going to improve. I'm a FIRM believer that modern society has become (and is heading even more in the direction of) a dangerous amount of overly PC attitudes. That said, I don't think being an a-hole is the answer either. But if you see a guitar where the upper bout is wider than the lower, or has faults that will lead to functionality issues, etc. I think they SHOULD be pointed out.

Moral: Don't censor yourself. Those that also think logically will have your back and not take things personally. And those with thin skin, or that are overly PC... well... do you really want them as friends anyways?

Chris

[RestorationAD]

I'll keep it to myself from now on.

dont - if you have an opinion on a guitar then post it.

they have put it on a public forum and once you do that you have to expect the encouragement, praise and indeed scrutiny that the forum is based on

if people expect people to just 'oh wow' everything then a specialist forum like this is NOT the place to post it

I agree with Wez. I think we need MORE critical posts. No offense (and I thus won't be putting names down) but we see some SHADE-Y guitar builds that get some HUGE praise. If someone builds something with odd proportions, questionable structural integrity, etc. and people keep throwing "AWESOME MAN!" at them, then they're never going to improve. I'm a FIRM believer that modern society has become (and is heading even more in the direction of) a dangerous amount of overly PC attitudes. That said, I don't think being an a-hole is the answer either. But if you see a guitar where the upper bout is wider than the lower, or has faults that will lead to functionality issues, etc. I think they SHOULD be pointed out.

Moral: Don't censor yourself. Those that also think logically will have your back and not take things personally. And those with thin skin, or that are overly PC... well... do you really want them as friends anyways?

Chris

First the written word is harder to convey than the spoken word. Sometimes on forums (email, etc...) it is very hard to type what you feel. In the real world people would pickup on body language and etc. that might tip off true meaning. So everyone chill. ___It is just a guitar___. Not like something scary happened to your family or something.

Wez -- Chris -- all whom it may concern

You are right. We should be more critical. If I wanted to hear "Wooo that is pretty" I would show my sh1t3 to the family. I post here for 2 reasons. To help n00bs and to see where my stuff stands with a spectrum of the luthier populous (from n00b to vet).

I will tell you that I want to know when something is off. (You guys can't hurt my feelings.) Also we should all try to be critical of the builds we see (without being arse holes). I myself have not commented on OBVIOUS crap builds because I don't want to be perceived as an arse. It is hard to do... sometimes you have to read your response more than once. But seriously if something is amiss chime in. Peers are a hard judge and peers opinions do not always equate to success of the builder (remember positive cash flow is way better than the opinions of peers).

What I try to take from all this is constructive criticism and I try to return what I have learned (spirit of PG). The great thing about building instruments is that you can always learn (thanks Ola and Toone!.. and anyone else I PM).

However part of the frustration for veteran builders in posting is that no one asks any questions. I wish more guys asked questions in my threads (I get bored during the day need something to do...). I think that sometimes lack of comments leads to a feeling of disinterest.

n00bs -- ask more questions, don't be offended by someone telling you your stuff is bad-wrong

pros -- give more constructive posts and opinions, don't be offended by someone telling you your stuff is bad-wrong

Anyway... I am going back to drinking and plotting out the next build.

--B

[IPA or death]

In re-reading my post, I guess I could have stated things a little nicer. Truth be told, I was on my fourth Yuengling's at that point and probably should have not posted at all. I could have said it wasn't my favorite of his builds rather than it not being his best effort (!). I should have made it clear that it wasn't HIS headstock design that wasn't right, it was just a statement that the headstock is one of the things I think can throw off a build (again, not necessarily this particular build).

I hate that he got so mad about it, because like I said before, I like his builds--this one and the Green March are very nice and my kind of guitar for sure. Oh well, what can you do? I've said I'm sorry more than once so beyond that, it's just time to move on and stop being so sensitive.

[Prostheta]

I don't build guitars to sell, just for the fun of it.

And they aren't flawless, ground-breaking, or particularly innovative.

You don't have to look too closely to see flaws on my stuff.

That's why I don't enter them in GOTMs: they just aren't good enough.

It's exactly for guys like you that the GOTM was invented.

Drak, you sooth old git. I put my vote in GOTM on the instrument that has the most interesting build history, design ideas, meaning to the builder, etc. Not just on the end product; a guitar. This is Project Guitar, and I feel there is a great deal more here than just pictures of end products....or has anybody not noticed that yet?

As for the little bit of theatre played out earlier. Can't comment. Couldn't be bothered to read it. What was this thread about again?

Ah, filter coffee calling my name....

[avengers63]

<edit: take it to PM if you have to deliberate this, not in public.>

Edited October 7, 2010 by Prostheta

[Prostheta]

In fact, I think the thread has run its course. Not useful for the general board populace, so say your last before it gets deleted I guess.