Designer

[spacecowboy]

Hi I was wondering if there's a certain method of business within the Luthier/Custom guitar world. If Luthiers buy or go in business with designers?

I study in design, I've played guitar for many years, in bands, recording etc. I want to combine my passions and I've been designing guitars.

Maybe someone here is building an upcoming guitar and maybe would rather do a custom design rather than a les paul.... Obviously I wouldn't look to make a big cut since I wouldn't be actually doing most of the work.

Anyways here's an unfinished 3d sketch. One of many, many.

[verhoevenc]

Only case of this I've heard is J Buckland designs and luthiers who asked to build them. He was just a guy posting designs on a forum and people liked them enough someone took interest. As far as trying to get someone to use your designs... most people on here just build for fun. Out of the few who do build for sale, it's usually not in a full-time professional capacity, nor do they ask for a great deal above labor/parts costs. So even ANY cut will be quite low IMO. Perhaps marketing yourself to larger (don't think Fender, etc. though) companies, instead of custom luthiers, may be the way to go?

Also, from my personal perspective, working with your designs would be a big time/money gamble since you are currently an unknown name. All the risk seems to be with the builder here? Also, I wouldn't release unfinished sketches if you're trying to convince someone to enter a professional arrangement.

Sorry if I come off evil hahaha, just trying to help you craft your approach/ideas to something that will better fit the audience you're currently targeting (ie: PG forum).

Chris

Edit: I also just noticed this: Your Pretty-Much-Same-Thread From Awhile Back What was wrong with the 3 pages of answers you got last time?

Sorry to snoop, but your post came off "I'm new here" but your post count proved otherwise.

[Bionic Dave]

Every builder is a designer.

[spacecowboy]

I basically re-posted because last time I didn't get many responses and I thought if I started over with a sample it would go smoother. We'll to me it doesn't seem to be a big risk if the luthier likes the design. You have to believe in the product to sell it right? I'll take your advise and try smaller companies. I tried some larger companies but they responded to me saying they already had designers and don't buy designs. Maybe you know of some smaller companies that could possibly be interested?

Don't worry it didn't come off Evil sounding Chris!

Anyways I'm not trying to get rich here. Just maybe see a few dollars and more importantly see my designs out there.

-Vince

[verhoevenc]

It is a lot of risk cause besides materials and time to build the actual guitar, there's also templating' possible retooling if your guitar requires different build techniques than the luthier's current style, etc. That said, its hard to see this if you don't build (which I'm assuming is the case). I think the best answer came from your old thread. If YOU believe in the design, commission someone to build one for you. Then market it. If you get people asking for them u seriously doubt the luthier who you had build the prototype will say "no thanks, I don't want more business'. Like you said, you have to believe in it to sell it. And the FIRST person that needs to show belief in the design is YOU.

As far as companies... They told you they don't buy designs... So go have your designs sealed at a notary for copyright purposes (despite what people told you in your last thread you can't patent a DESIGN) and then show them your portfolio and see if they are hiring.

Chris

[WezV]

here is a guy who designed a guitar, had an idea for it... commissioned a Uk luthier to make a few prototypes, and a year later we are just about seeing the prototypes coming together

http://www.musicradar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50160

http://www.musicradar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51928

http://www.musicradar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55033

maybe this is an approach you could consider

...

but the best way would be to actually learn how to build them yourself... most of us here have managed it so it cant be that hard

[verhoevenc]

Something in those threads gave me an idea. That guy had CAD designs of the guitar made. I'm sure you're capable of doing technical drawings since you're already working in 3D. Do a little research and find out how best to do these for guitars (I'm learning right now, ain't that hard) and you can probably cut down a lot of cost by going to a CNC shop, having them cut out parts for you, and then assembling yourself. That way you still get the hands on, don't have to pay a luthier for everything, and still get to prototype the guitars? Unless I'm incorrect in assuming that a LOT of the CNC costs are getting the drawings done?? This way all they have to do is quickly go through the CAM, and cut it.

Chris

[Ken Bennett]

Something in those threads gave me an idea. That guy had CAD designs of the guitar made. I'm sure you're capable of doing technical drawings since you're already working in 3D. Do a little research and find out how best to do these for guitars (I'm learning right now, ain't that hard) and you can probably cut down a lot of cost by going to a CNC shop, having them cut out parts for you, and then assembling yourself. That way you still get the hands on, don't have to pay a luthier for everything, and still get to prototype the guitars? Unless I'm incorrect in assuming that a LOT of the CNC costs are getting the drawings done?? This way all they have to do is quickly go through the CAM, and cut it.

Chris

Your assumption is correct, verhoevenc. I pay a CNC shop to make some templates, saving $50 per hour by supplying the drawings. If you supply the material too, then you cut the cost down to just run time.

I would say this about selling and designing custom guitars. Remember that "custom" forms the main part of word "customer". In practice, the unique aspects of a guitar usually originate in the mind of the customer. I have sold many more guitars designed with a buyers input.

A good way to go for a non-building designer would be to hook up with a guitar maker and get a demo guitar. Even if the luthier doesn't have a lot of experience, the guitar will speak for itself. The designer could take his portfolio and the demo guitar and go find a customer who has his own vision. Then you have 3 parties in a contract where, as Bionic Dave said, you really only need 2, a customer and a builder (who is already a designer). So the most important thing that a designer who doesn't build could bring to the table is not a design; it's a customer.

[verhoevenc]

Ken, just checked out your stuff. Good to have more professionals joining the site every day!

Chris

[spacecowboy]

-Yes i was thinking of that also, being the middle man. Doing the designs, getting a contract to build a guitar then contracting a builder.

-Bionic dave (Every builder is a designer.)

That's not true, I've seen a lot of just copy builds. And sometimes people who don't have an artistic eye build really....cough...awkward guitars...

If I provide the CNC shop with material and designs (Yes I know autocad actually) how much approximately of course is the hourly wage for the run time?

[WezV]

-Bionic dave (Every builder is a designer.)

That's not true, I've seen a lot of just copy builds. And sometimes people who don't have an artistic eye build really....cough...awkward guitars...

awkward guitars that they designed. Generally peoples designs get better and more elegant as they build more. The two processes of designing and building can not be treated seperately till you have a real working knowledge of both.

I would say your design (which i do quite like) would be massively improved by building one. It currently has issues that a builders design perspective will see straight away. Do you want a list? Will i get paid a consultation fee for providing one?

[spacecowboy]

It currently has issues that a builders design perspective will see straight away. Do you want a list? Will i get paid a consultation fee for providing one?

Not sure I understand what your saying there sorry?

Well I understand how your saying designing and building can not be treated separately but at the same time they should be. I believe it should be looked at aesthetically firstly (design) then put together with the building aspect which is functionality/tone/ergonomics/etc.

And I'm glad you like my design! Thanks!

Edited September 27, 2010 by spacecowboy

[spacecowboy]

I believe I wrote what is more important in my previous post.

I believe it should be looked at aesthetically firstly (design) then put together with the building aspect which is functionality/tone/ergonomics/etc.

Definitely design is a big thing, every guitar player wants to look cool right?

[WezV]

It currently has issues that a builders design perspective will see straight away. Do you want a list? Will i get paid a consultation fee for providing one?

Not sure I understand what your saying there sorry?

thats my point, you may understand more if you had built one

For a start you seem to be using full size humbuckers... have a look at some guitars with 3 full size humbuckers (SG/les paul customs) to see how much room there is to play with. your design has quite a bit of room which suggests you either have a longer scale length or less frets. which is fine if that is what you were thinking but immediately limits your market for this design even more. if it is a baritone with a longer scale length then you need to reconsider pickup position as your bridge one is a bit far from the bridge, changing the tone from what many would expect from a bridge pickup. my guess is that moving the bridge up a bit will put it in the right place which means your scratchplate needs redesigning, and would mean quite a few things on your design are off

The upper fret access could be better, as it is a lot of players would be put off. The waist on the treble side looks like it could make the guitar uncomfy when sat down, especially with one side of it protruding more than the other

also it strikes me as a large guitar so whats the plan - is it hollow, chambered, solid?. is it to built in three layers, maybe danelectro style or is that just a finish? What sort of tone are you going for? How will it look with a wooden fretboard? What will the plan be for electronics cavities? what are the switching options? What weight are you aiming for? ... what sort of player are you aiming at? whats your plan for the neck join?

these are just some of the things that will go towards a final design. aesthetics are a relatively small part of the whole design process. and if i was buying a design i would expect all of these things covered as a minimum including full blueprints and CAD templates for every element of the design and construction in isolation. which is why i think being able to build is a distinct advantage

[spacecowboy]

I've thought of these questions and I do have a plan on how to build them. I wont be answering the questions because basically there's no point right now. I built this off plans of a les paul blueprint.

I'm building it currently in 3dmax but I will be building it in Autocad which then you can print the blueprints. I can import what i'm building into autocad also (some models).

I actually have a 3 full size humbucker guitar (Eastwood Airline 3dpx).

I've put together a guitar from a kit and sold it so I do have an understanding. Not an expert but definitely I have the knowledge.

[Ken Bennett]

If I provide the CNC shop with material and designs (Yes I know autocad actually) how much approximately of course is the hourly wage for the run time?

Depends on the shop.

Last time I got about 10 templates for $100. The CNC shop used 1/2" phenolic because that's what they were running that day.

[Ken Bennett]

Ken, just checked out your stuff. Good to have more professionals joining the site every day!

Chris

Thanks. I love seeing this many guitar builders in one place.

[spacecowboy]

10 guitar templates cut for 100$ or 100$ an hour?

[Ken Bennett]

I've thought of these questions and I do have a plan on how to build them. I wont be answering the questions because basically there's no point right now. I built this off plans of a les paul blueprint.

I'm building it currently in 3dmax but I will be building it in Autocad which then you can print the blueprints. I can import what i'm building into autocad also (some models).

I actually have a 3 full size humbucker guitar (Eastwood Airline 3dpx).

I've put together a guitar from a kit and sold it so I do have an understanding. Not an expert but definitely I have the knowledge.

Go for it, then. Your design has some good points. I like the violin-like 'C' curves on the sides. Good luck with the construction.

[spacecowboy]

Update. Still not done, tweaking some stuff (whammy bar, inlays, logo, fret spacing). Let me know what you think!

[Samba Pa Ti]

i like the layout and shape, one thing i noticed was that the body looks very thin, it makes the neck look set or thru, yet there are 3 screws on the back.

the back view actually looks thicker than the sides.

[verhoevenc]

Also, that Bigsby looks WAY too close for a bridge that high. That break angle is going to be even more intense than those seen on Les Pauls with a bigsby... and I find that to be way too much personally. It will affect playability.

Chris

[spacecowboy]

About the thickness, the back model is the exact same as the other 2. I can get you the measurements. I wanted a bolt on neck to get a stratotone tone.

Honestly I never thought of the break angle! Just to be 100% sure that is the angle from the bridge to the start of the bigsby right?

It would affect playability because you believe you'll hit your hand on it while picking?

I could switch it out for another tailpiece or possibly move it if I have room.

[Ken Bennett]

10 guitar templates cut for 100$ or 100$ an hour?

10 templates for $100. I don't know how long it took. Probably not 1 whole hour.

[spacecowboy]

Thanks a lot Ken, that's great for me because thats the main thing. I don't have the necessary tools to do all the cutting. If i CNC the body and neck I can do the rest!