Burns Tri-sonics

[danbking]

Hi. I'm new to guitars, and things. I've done a lot of woodworking, and in general, I am very handy. I've got the bug to make my own guitar. I'm doing it on the cheap (as much as I can). I'm going to make a somewhat replica of Red Special, from Brian May (of Queen). As I read things, and I think that there's as much legend/myth as there is truth out there about this guitar, I'm trying to see what the Burns Tri-sonics are like.

Does anyone have one of these lying around to take some pictures of? What I'm confused about is that the descriptions say that there are just 3 magnets stuck end to end here, and that the wires are just a hodge-podge stuck in there. And that the casing of the pickups are chrome, so they extend the magnetic field of the magnets. It seems though, that every other string would be traveling through a different polarity. Wouldn't that make the sound a lot different (scratchy even)? Anyways. I'm looking to make these, I have a forge at home, and could form the case myself. But I'm anxious to see what these actually look like on the inside and what the hodge podge of wires on the inside look like.

Thanks for any help! You guys are awesome! I've looked at quite a few things in here to help me along as I go.

Dan

[SwedishLuthier]

The Tri-sonics are some interesting pickups and I have far from the complete picture. Talking of picture, lets start with a few of of the best that is out there:

http://www.gettyimages.se/detail/85848932

http://www.brianmayworld.com/TriSonicsDimensions.jpg and

AFAIK the tri-sonics are either made as an air coil, meaning they are wound onto a collapsible holder, taped together to form a more solid coil before the holder is taken apart, then slid over a ceramic magnet, pretty much like the magnet for a traditional HB, but placed "on its edge", or they were/are wound directly around the ceramic magnet pretty much like the Dan-O lipstick pickups. They have a chromed brass cover with holes punched to look a bit like the exposed magnets of a Fender pickup. The holes reduce eddy currents, thus lessen the treble attenuation a brass cover usually causes. The chrome cover doesn't affect the magnetic field much, if all. However I have seen the notion that the base plate is made of magnetic steel! And if so, the small tabs that are bent up to hold the cover, will actually help to wrap the magnetic filed up against the strings like this:

compared to what it would look like without the steel base plate:

And if so that would play a big role in the sound of that pickup. Having said all that I would suggest that if you are:

1. building your first ever guitar

2. making your first ever pickups, you are biting off mote than enough if you

3. are making those first pickups air coil tri-sonics. If is hard enough (far from impossible, but never the less it takes some hard work) to make the first couple of pickups sound really good. To make "off the beaten path" pickups, with limited in formation regarding construction and without ready made parts commercially available is probably ti stretch things a bit too far. I suggest that you settle on making a good guitar. Not even Brian May himself made the pickups for his now oh so famous guitar.

[danbking]

Thanks a ton for your info! I know that this is a little more than I can handle. I'm okay with that. I'm expecting to take years to make this guitar. I'm expecting to have to rebuild parts. I'm just that kind of guy. I want a project to work on. I usually have several projects in several different stages of completed-ness. I'm not looking to finish and expect to sound like, or play like Brian May. I know about 10-20 chords. I don't have a guitar right now, and I'm looking to have something to pick on when I'm done. If it sounds like CRAP, then I may just buy the pickups instead, but we'll see. Brian May did make his own pickups for Red Special, but then threw them out because they sounded too "scratchy". Again, I'm not looking to make something PERFECT. Just looking for a good project to do. Again, thanks a bunch!

Dan ROCK ON!!! :D

[Prostheta]

<edit: OOPS!!! Sorry SwedishLuthier!!! I missed the part you added between the diagrams, and obviously just confirmed exactly what you said anyway. I suppose that helps in some way, maybe. It does make me look somewhat stupid however.>

Hi Dan! I'm actually starting my own website specifically on the Red Special, and I'm doing a lot of objective research into all aspects (as much as is feasible without getting my dirty paws on the Old Lady) of the build and history. I look forward to seeing where you go with this one.

Tri-Sonics. Okay.

The original Tri-Sonics are air coils which were wound on a collapsible former which was removed after winding. I believe the coils may have been either tape-wrapped or epoxy potted to keep their shape. Modern Burns Tri-Sonics are built differently to the originals (mostly down to the fragility of the coil during manufacturing processes, I believe) whereas Adesons (www.adesons.co.uk) are copies of the Tri-Sonics down to the last detail - even the weird vintage ceramic magnets (similar to AlNiCo 2). The modern Burns pickups changed this also, I think. The Adesons BM signature set are also calibrated to the values the three pickups were measured at by Greg Fryer (or was it Andy Guyton?) during refurb as they vary somewhat also. Even the holes in the top of the case are cosmetic!

Legend has it that BM rewound the central pickup to reverse it, and flipped the polarity of the magnet. I am a little confused as to how easy it would be to rewind such an odd and fragile coil however, especially if it was tape wrapped or moreso if epoxy potted....! New wire, perhaps? Also during the refurb, it was found that two of the pickups were potted in epoxy, not all three as legend supposedly "states". As always on t'Internet, there is a lot of contradictory and anecdotal evidence out there, with repeated errors or omissions becoming accepted as fact. You see what I'm trying to achieve with my own RS site now....

Very weird pickups indeed. If you want your RS to sound like the original, buy the Adesons. If you want them to look 100% The Part, buy the Burns ;-) I am going to try both I think, if funds permit. I'd like to do an objective analysis of the various aspects of the RS to have a peek under the Old Lady's skirts....

Good having you onboard bud.

PS. If anyone has any especially OLD tight-grained Mahogany they'd like to offer me for the necks on these long term projects (I can't build for a while....) I would be interested in a PM, and you would very much have my gratitude as I'm going slightly mad out here without a guitar workshop!!!

Edited October 19, 2010 by Prostheta

[danbking]

Thanks Prostheta. I think that I'm going to make mine out of what I have available. I would love to reproduce the RS, but I don't think that I have the money for materials. I have a lot of salvaged oak that I made my daughter's bed out of. I know it's going to be heavy, but I think I'm going to make the whole thing out of oak. I'm using mostly hand tools, and so far one ground the neck to thickness. Not depth yet. I've got a thin oak board for the fretboard. I'm going to worry about the body when I get the neck done. I'll probably do most of the body of he oak, and then see if I can finagle some laminate. By the by, do you know what the "shelf edging" white material is? I used to work in a wood shop where they had a lot of edgetape for prefab particle board stuff. That's the only thing that I can think of. What's your website? I'm collecting a list of them that I'm referring to. I often get a lot of contradictory info like fret radius 7.5 & 9. Don't know. I have a friend who's really into guitars, and I figure I'd just ask him if he has both and see which one I like best.

Party on, peoples!!!

[Prostheta]

Are you in the UK, Dan? I would be willing to trade materials if it helps. I don't have a specific source for Oak here yet so perhaps things could be worked out. Many of the Red Special's construction materials are pretty cheap to come by. I can't recommend using Oak throughout as it sucks tonally, apparently.

I'm on a very long timescale also, so stick around. Plenty to read on here to get your own project off on the right foot.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Prostheta

[SwedishLuthier]

Legend has it that BM rewound the central pickup to reverse it, and flipped the polarity of the magnet. I am a little confused as to how easy it would be to rewind such an odd and fragile coil however, especially if it was tape wrapped or moreso if epoxy potted....! New wire, perhaps?

Well, the reversed winding thing is ever so often misinterpreted. You do not have to wind a pickup the opposite direction to make it humbucking. I wind all my pickups the same way, but I swap the start/end wire. That way I’m changing “the path to ground”. That is enough. And with a pickup made on a collapsible holder the magnet will be somewhat loose inside that coil and you can just flip the magnet very easy, so if the mid pickup is RWRP (reverse wind, reverse polarity) my guess is that BM just flipped the magnet(s) and the start/end wire.

Do I get a cockie now? Or at least being mentioned on that page on the Red Special?

[Samba Pa Ti]

may rewound all his pickups apparently, for a while you could buy pickups like this from WD music they were slightly more vintage sounding (apparently).

as for reverse winding it, that wouldnt be needed as his series wiring had switches to reverse the polarity, the magnet could have been changed though.

ive got 2 sets of burns trisonics and they sound good but are nothing more than single coils with a bit more crunch (like mini p90's).

i have a set in a burns guitar and a set of kent armstrong ones which are slightly higher quality.

some info here about the V ones http://www.brianmaycentral.net/pickups.html

i dont think kent armstrong makes them anymore.

[Prostheta]

Legend has it that BM rewound the central pickup to reverse it, and flipped the polarity of the magnet. I am a little confused as to how easy it would be to rewind such an odd and fragile coil however, especially if it was tape wrapped or moreso if epoxy potted....! New wire, perhaps?

Well, the reversed winding thing is ever so often misinterpreted. You do not have to wind a pickup the opposite direction to make it humbucking. I wind all my pickups the same way, but I swap the start/end wire. That way I’m changing “the path to ground”. That is enough. And with a pickup made on a collapsible holder the magnet will be somewhat loose inside that coil and you can just flip the magnet very easy, so if the mid pickup is RWRP (reverse wind, reverse polarity) my guess is that BM just flipped the magnet(s) and the start/end wire.

Do I get a cockie now? Or at least being mentioned on that page on the Red Special?

I'll certainly pop your comment up there as background grist if you are happy for me to do so. I actually thought that since it is feasible to remove the coil from the body of the pickup, you could flip it upside down. But switching the phase either by swapping wires or by electronic switching is just silly-easy. I'm sure that a degree of evolution in facts has occurred over the years. That said, there are plenty of articles from the 70s where Brian states various facts about the RS. Whether bending the truth to create mystery or forgetting the true circumstances or details, many things just don't seem to add up and fit together.

I get the impression that by exploding some of the myths or "truths accepted due to repetition", or at least illustrating them I might be stepping on a lot of people's toes in the RS community. Someone has to do it, so a big blundering goof like me might do the trick.

[Prostheta]

Peter - what are you opinions on this photo? I suspect this is a modified pickup due to the presence of the black electrical tape....

[Samba Pa Ti]

weird pickup, its got a bobbin that has screws in it, the trisonics that i have dont, they have metal lugs. tri-sonic is crooked on the cover too.

i suspect its a bloody ancient one, thats not like any of the ones ive got.

EDIT

updated with pictures of a kent armstrong one,

[Prostheta]

Apparently the vintage Burns and the modern Burns Tri-Sonics vary in construction. The picture I posted may actually be of one of the Red Special's.

It looks like Kent's coil might have been potted straight after winding, which I guess reduces handling problems from the fragility of the coil. Wound onto a former which the epoxy doesn't stick to, perhaps? Not an expert on pickups, but very interested in learning now.

[Samba Pa Ti]

original one is sexier i must say lol

[SwedishLuthier]

Jupp, the first photo is definitely more vintage than the Kent Armstrong's, in more than one way. Looking at the first one indicates that it can have been rewired, although one need to examine the tape quality, how old it appears and stuff like that. I can also honestly say that I don't know for sure what type of lead wire it came with originally. The red and black wire looks a bit too "modern" to me, to flexible, if one can say from a photo. Once again you need to have the pickup in your hand to judge. However, what strikes me as more interesting is that the pickup seems to have a steel baseplate AND a fiber "holder plate" (or separate metal plate covered with some other material, some things in the pic makes me think that is also possible) that the height adjustment screws are fastened into. Compare that to the modern Armstrong one ans you see that the baseplate also holds the screws. It would have been very interesting to be able to test the baseplate's to see if they are ferrous. Makes a big difference in sound.

I agree on the modern once probably being wound on a "non-stick" type of holder and then being potted directly without the wrapping tape. I have heard somewhere that Armstrong does it that way.

Nice pics both of you. Just for comparison, have a look at this old Italian pickup. Construction is pretty much the same, although the magnet doesn't show on this pic

[WezV]

i had some hayman pickups that were wound in a similar way, iirc they were another burns company

all 3 single coils where mounted to this massive block of metal - with the magnets underneath. other than that the coils look just like those tape wrapped ones

i may still have some of the parts like magnets and a couple of the coils in a box somewhere if its of any interest to anyone

edit:

i got them from brandoni guitars in wembley many years ago - but they still have them listed on the website at £45 for a set of 3 ( a set of 3 is actually one massive block the pickups are built into on the hayman 1010). not sure if its of interest or not - but it could be a possible source of early 70's NOS coils wound the burns way on the burns machines. I dismantled one, the coil felt soft so if it was potted it wasnt done with epoxy

i remember the magnets being shorter than usual, but much fatter. so they wouldnt be useful for a burns reproduction but they were alnico (shiny on the cut edges)

[Prostheta]

Very interesting indeed. Tineye doesn't bring up any results on the TS pic I posted unfortunately. :-\

Another anecdotal "factoid" about the Brian May "modified" Tri-Sonics is that he packed the top out with rubber to lessen the noise created when his sixpence hit the pickup casing whilst picking. Doesn't make less than 100% sense? Might it be that the baseplate in the pic was added to further isolate the coil and magnet from the case?

The case on that Italian pickup looks very sexy, Peter.