Staining Bad Mahogany

[Duke]

So here is my current situation:

I have a guitar that was previously refinished and tru-oiled. I didn't like the way the finish came out. There were a few dark spots in the wood, like whole blotches of wood were much darker than the rest. It wasn't due to the tru-oil, as I have the top sanded down and those areas are still darker than the rest of the wood. In addition to that, there are some white "specs" in the wood, like a grain filler or something.

Here is my plan right now:

1. After I sand everything to 1500, I plan to bleach the wood, to eliminate the dark spots.

2. After I re-sand/prep the body, I need to grain fill with something. (or not? the grain feels kind of full thanks to the tru-oil. I've heard of people using tru-oil as a sealer before.)

3. After prepping again, I'll apply several coats of Minwax red mahogany stain. (Now, some concerns of mine. The fretboard is purpleheart. If I stain the neck too, will I need to mask off the purpleheart, or can that just be sanded out?)

4. After the stain is completely dry, I'll apply several coats of Minwax Tung Oil. I know it's not "real" tung oil, but since it's a varnish, I think it would effectively seal the guitar. I think I've heard of the stain + tung oil combination being done before.

Now, does this seem like a valid plan? Would this work in theory? lol.

[ihocky2]

A few thoughts and questions.

Did you do the tru-oil treatment on the guitar or was it done before you got it? The difference between the light and dark spots could be due to sealer that was never completely sanded off, especially if you still have grain filler showing up. This will definitely cause a problem when you go to bleach it if the wood is still sealed.

Why sand to 1500? 600 on up is no longer really sanding, but more polishing and especially at 1500 grit. You will not see a difference in the finish by sanding any further than 400. Bob Flexner's book on finishing says you won't even see a difference after 250, though I still go to 320 on a transparent finish.

You might get away with staining and sanding down the fretboard, but it is just a whole lot faster and safer to tape it off. I can tape a fretboard in less than 5 minutes. To sand a fretboard up to 2000 grit again is at least an hour on a good day, and purpleheart is not the easiest thing to sand.

The tung-oil varnish should work on top of that stain, but testing on scrap is always a good idea. It will seal off the guitar, but it is not going to be the most durable finish. The tung-oil name is a fancy name for wiping varnish, so it will build very slowly and should take about 24 hours between coats. So it will take a lot of time to get enough build for decent protection. I am not sure how scratch resistent that finish will be either.

[Duke]

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure why I'm sanding to 1500, I just figured might as well. I've definitely sanded it down completely. The dark spots are due to it being a 3-piece body, it seems that I got one bad piece out of three. It's like the entire upper part of the body has a black line going across it, and not in a natural (or good) looking way.

[Drak]

I doubt bleaching it is going to get you what you expect.

Several reasons:

1. Bleaching bleaches everything the same, you may lighten the dark spot(s), but you'll lighten everything else too.

2. Bleaching is best done on 100% raw wood, all bleaches are very caustic chemicals and can react with whatever else is on ther enow (bits of grain filler, Tru-Oil remnants, etc.)

3. The bleach may even make things worse than they are now, it may lighten the raw wood, but the grain (which is filled, yes?) may not be affected by the bleach.

People tend to think bleach is a cure-all, but it isn't, it's a chemical, and interacts with other chemicals just like putting lacquer over enamel or whatever...

Agree with ihocky too, you only need to sand to 320 really, any more probably is a waste of your time.

Bleach raises grain too, just like water.

And there are two primary types of bleach and they react two different ways.

Sodium Hypochlorite tends to bleach out colors, inks, etc., while the 2-part wood bleach actually concentrates on bleaching out the actual color from the wood itself.

Both will bleach out whatever you throw them at, but they do do two different things in actuality.

A few pics may help here.

[Duke]

Hmm yeah, the bleach may be a bad idea. Maybe I should just use the stain to get a uniform shade throughout?

I'll try to get a pic.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Duke

[Duke]

Here it is. That is not a shadow, that's how it actually looks raw. I've sanded it down twice before and it doesn't go away. What the hell is that?

[Prostheta]

Looks like it could be natural, but my first thought was sealer too. Does the Tru-oil sit equally on the light and dark areas when applying? Some of the poly sealers I've taken off in the past were crazy thick and bit right into the wood grain at significant depth.

Any chance of a closeup of the surface?

[Duke]

Looks like it could be natural, but my first thought was sealer too. Does the Tru-oil sit equally on the light and dark areas when applying? Some of the poly sealers I've taken off in the past were crazy thick and bit right into the wood grain at significant depth.

Any chance of a closeup of the surface?

The tru oil sits well, but that portion of the body comes out dark, as expected. I'll try and get a closer pic.

[westhemann]

Looks like mineral streaking.And not mahogany...rather looks like basswood.The streaking makes me think poplar,but I suppose it is possible for basswood to have mineral streaking?

NOT mahogany.

What did that guitar used to be before you sanded away the logo?Is it a Schecter Omen?Those are basswood.

[Duke]

Looks like mineral streaking.And not mahogany...rather looks like basswood.The streaking makes me think poplar,but I suppose it is possible for basswood to have mineral streaking?

NOT mahogany.

What did that guitar used to be before you sanded away the logo?Is it a Schecter Omen?Those are basswood.

It is mahogany. Trust me, I know so, lol. The grain is super porous when its not filled. It's a Schecter Blackjack C-1 EX baritone w/ a modded purpleheart fretboard.

[westhemann]

If you say so.But I don't see it.The controls are different from the ones I have seen.They usually have one volume,one tone,and a blade switch.Those controls there match either a C1 standard or an Omen.

The C1 guitars are supposed to be mahogany,but the grain and color of that body even in that fuzzy pic does not match any mahogany I have seen,and I have seen and worked with a whole lot of it.The grain and color of that top piece most closely resembles basswood except for the streaking.I had an Omen and it was the first guitar I ever stripped and repainted...the wood like I say exactly matches that except for the streaking.

This is an all mahogany guitar I built out of several species of mahogany,except for the walnut center lam on the neck.I even used some Luan(also called Phillipine mahogany),which is not even really mahogany except it was in the mahogany section at the wood store.

Do you have better pics?

[westhemann]

Aside from all that,It rarely pays to take the paint off of factory guitars.They use just random scrap pieces of wood and in my opinion it never,ever looks good.

I think it would look better if you repainted it...White would go good with the fretboard.

[Duke]

Aside from all that,It rarely pays to take the paint off of factory guitars.They use just random scrap pieces of wood and in my opinion it never,ever looks good.

I think it would look better if you repainted it...White would go good with the fretboard.

Dude, I bought the guitar in the store. It's a blackjack. Omen's don't have a set-neck.

Basswood does not look like this:

That's how it looked with the tru-oil. See that discoloration? I just need to fix that one part and it would look pretty decent. Maybe if I just bleach that one spot? Even if it doesn't completely match the rest, that dumb dark spot wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb. But I just don't want it to interfere with any other chemicals.

[Duke]

The original guitar:

[westhemann]

That is surely a better picture of the problem.I think my main issue is whether or not Schecter is providing the wood they say they are,or if they are pulling an "epiphone" and just sticking whatever they have together.The reason I wonder is that aside from that Omen I once bought a 7 string Schecter which was supposed to be mahogany,but when I plugged it in to my amp,it did not have the depth of tone that mahogany usually does...I sent it back to MF the next day...it was a transparent dark red on the back,and the grain really did not look like mahogany either.

Yeah Omen's are bolt on.I am just curious as to what is going on at Schecter's korean factories.

Forgive me for saying so,but it looked much better black.

[Prostheta]

IIRC, Schecter have their parts made in Asian factories and are then assembled in the US. Only their custom shop stuff is truly US. In that respect, the whole "knocking up" a blank from whatever is around is most likely, especially on block painted instruments. Shame that the flame isn't across the entire instrument consistently. If it wasn't set neck, you could get someone with a vacuum press to pop a veneer over the top.

[westhemann]

Basswood does not look like this:

Well,I have to disagree.Not to be argumentative but I really,really am very familiar...

Basswood

Mahogany

[Drak]

OK, thanks for the better pic.

Here's my 'diagnosis' (FWIW)

I think that's a Great looking guitar for starters.

You have three Completely Different Grain oriented pieces of wood there.

The top 'dark' section has a tremendous amount of curl/quilt in it, the others none, and it has the dark section (probably just the difference between heartwood and sapwood on the tree).

No Matter What you do, those pieces of wood are not going to match up to the point where you can do a natural or dyed finish, it's simply a no-go. Thumbs Down. Nada. No-Go-ski. Red Flag. Danger Will Robinson.

If you want to go ahead, it's certainly your guitar to do with as you want, but I feel you will always be unhappy with it and it'll wind up in the corner or closet or sold for pennies on the dollah.

I think it's way too nice a guitar to wind up like that, I would start picking out a solid color and just move past it.

Some options besides a normal solid color: House of Kolor candy colors, Gold Top, Silver Sparkle Flake, etc.

[westhemann]

Drak's post made me realize it sounds like I am being harsh on your guitar.I am not...I just want you to be aware of what you have.Can't be sure of what you want until you know what you have.

[Duke]

Funny thing is that it looks exactly like the mahogany picture you posted. Trust me, I know what basswood sounds like, plus basswood is very close grained, this is not. This is one of my favorite sounding guitars. Also, black guitars are always a failure. You actually think black guitars look good? lol.

[westhemann]

You actually think black guitars look good? lol.

Yeah me and about a million others like them better than brown ones lol

Unfortunately you won't find too many of them on this forum.

[WezV]

black always works!

white still looks better on stage.

i am not so keen on natural wood tones these days. It works with some classic designs that always had a lot of natural wood tone, and it works on proper work horse guitars... but on anything with a bit of bling those browner wood tones dont really work for me anymore.

[westhemann]

White is awesome too...

I think guys that are new to guitar modding always go through that "strip and clear the world" stage,but in the end it always comes back to either great paint or great wood.

I still like a good mahogany guitar,but only when they are either one piece or bookmatched...or possibly just straight grained with hidden glue joins.The multiple piece bodies produced by the asian factories just don't fit the bill...they are by definition "paint grade".

But it's all about the making it your own,so it's all good.It certainly won't make it sound or play any worse

[Duke]

The problem is that I really can't afford a good paint job right now, and I'm certainly not about to screw up a good guitar trying it myself...I think I can still rectify the situation.

[westhemann]

Certainly.I stripped my Omen down to bare wood,stained it in "red mahogany",and carved a crooked pentagram behind the TOM...it looked like it had been burned and stained with blood in some unholy ritual

I liked it though..it was my very first guitar modification aside from the usual electronics swapping I had been doing for years.I did a very poor job..but it was electric blue to begin with,so I really did it a favor.Unfortunately once I started learning more about build quality I realized what a poor specimen it was and I put it in my closet and a few years ago I gave it to my nephew.I went through alot of guitars since then,both high quality and low.I have a white Gibson Explorer right now that is the best guitar I have had in years...maybe ever...fits me like a glove.

One thing I always think of though when I see these threads is my high school metal band...The other guitarist(who played a white 84 explorer) and I were very serious about practicing every single night on our own,and we all met once a week for a jam/practice.

The bassist seemed to never practice...or he just didn't have the talent I don't know,but theone that really drove me and James crazy was the drummer...he was never happy just to leave his drum set alone and practice...he kept taking the entire thing apart and trying to repaint it to be something only he could picture.He just could not get past it...meanwhile I played a green sparkly Applause strat with HSS pickups and I could not hardly even stand to take the strings off long enough to replace them.

So he never got good at all...now he and the bassist no longer even have instruments..one works on computers and the other sells paint.Meanwhile I still have guitars,I still play enough to at least be almost as good as when I was younger,and I can't imagine a life without being able to play.

When I get into building,it is in periods of depression over my "writer's block" or whatever.I can't seem to write anything worth playing anymore aside from little practice riffs,so I just play all of my old songs and all of the covers I know over and over and over...I mean,it is a library of maybe a couple hundred songs,but even so it gets really old,and i forget some exist for years sometimes until one day I remember them.

My point in all of this rambling is this...if you have your guitar apart for constant modding just to make it look different,I hope you have another one to play,because a pretty guitar is no good at all if you can't play it as good as you want to.

I know this perspective may not be popular here,but if I could go back and do things differently in this life,I would not start building guitars sooner,I would start playing guitar at a younger age,and I would suffer and starve to try to get that big break everyone needs..then at least even if I didn't make it,I would have tried harder.