Mors Phagist Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Currently working on a PRS Style build, and Im wondering how this combination of woods would turn out. Philippian Mahogony for the Neck. Its less dense than I would have preffered, but its got a nice baige brown for the fretboard/neck carve and then a more hardwoodish Dark purple for the headstock. The body is 3 pieces of mahogony with the grain facing perpendicular to the neck. It was the only way I could utilize all of the wood of that piece, but the grain is nice looking (Although it will face the back) and is a fairly dense piece. The top is White Walnut (Butternut), which has already been bookmatched into a half inch top. Its rather unique looking, and although it doesn't contain any quilting, flaming, or ect features, it reminds me of the Swamp ash tops that PRS has made. It should be pretty interesting though. I have yet to decide upon a fretboard, although I'll check what would work best with what comes out. I could also use some Suggestions for some quality pups that would work well with this instrument, although I understand it would be difficult to estimate how it would sound from the woods being used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juntunen Guitars Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Haha you know my opinions on wood tones in an electric guitar so we won't go there although the MN guitar I made had a mahogany body ad ash neck and it had a more beefy classic rock tone, it had nice mids and ok highs and it handled bass tones well however they weren't very really the bass tone I like, I think it would suit your style better than it did mine but that's how I think yours will sound, the neck being mahogany will probably give you more bass response though than the ash neck I had. Hmm about Butternut, it's a really soft hardwood, you can scratch it with your nail almost as easy as cedar which I am sure you already know. I think it may bring the sustain down a bit being so soft but yes it looks unique. It kind of reminds me of the old fake wood paneling you see in some old houses. What happened to those oak fretboards you had? If you have red oak you should use that, it barely changes in our winters up here and should you ever make an acoustic red oak makes good sides and back. Red oak also looks pretty cool. Other than that use some walnut or something if you have it. (When are you coming to get that walnut FB for your seven string or did you get one made now? What kind of finish are you going to do? Get some Seymour Duncan Blackouts, those sound great I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian d Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Reconsider the body wood. You'd be better off using less attractive timber than having the grain perpendicular. The fact that it will look weird is an aesthetic issue that you are either happy with or not (although you did ask for our opinions), but the stiffness of he body in the direction of string pull - a sizable force- will be reduced and will affect both stability and tone. Good luck with the build. Brian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Wood also expands along that dimension Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mors Phagist Posted March 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 To Juntunen, Yeah, the butternut cuts real soft, so ill be careful with it. Should be easy to carve though. This piece in particular should look pretty nice, and Im hoping to stain it. Ill post pictures sometime, as I actually have capabilities to take photos now. Since its 6 strings, I suppose I could use my other oak fretboard, but I didn't slot it and its already shaped, so slotting it would be difficult. So a new fretboard, done correctly, will work much better. And Dalton is up now for spring break, so we should be able to pick up that FB pretty soon. So, you guys don't suggest having perpendicular grain? I'll see what I can do, but I would like to try this, as the cut of mahogony is fairly nice. Also, I think I'll make it a bolt on, as I think I will need to adjust this build, and a set neck will be difficult to alter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 It's a horrible idea. Wood expands and contracts (more than you'd think) across the grain. That's why in furniture and stuff they have floating panels in door, backs of cabinet, etc. Because the wood there would expand enough to cause issues. So what you're going to end up with (granted I've never tried it, but the theory here is solid) is a guitar that will shrink and expand PARALLEL to the strings. IE: You will be messing with the intonation on a fairly regular basis I'd guess. As for the strength comment, as long as the guitar is a solidbody I would imagine the wood would be structurally sound in this orientation... but that still doesn't fix the above issue. I have seen ONE guitar built like this. A telecaster somewhere. But I would seriously suggest not doing it. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mors Phagist Posted March 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 Hmm. So it seems I need an alternative body wood. :/ This is an unfortunate setback, but Ill see what I can do. Thanks for the forewarning though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juntunen Guitars Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 I guess I would like to see a picture of how your grain is because I have built guitars with both the grain facing vertical and horizontal and had no problem. Or am I not thinking the same thing you guys are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shad peters Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 wood moves across the grain, that thing will go in and out of intonation sparatically depending on what day it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juntunen Guitars Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 wood moves across the grain, that thing will go in and out of intonation sparatically depending on what day it is. so you are saying if the grain was horizontal if you layed a guitar down on its back right? so the grain would be like this ----------- ----------- ----------- Instead of vetical ||||||| ||||||| ||||||| ||||||| Or am I still off? My MN guitar had horizontal grain and it never went out of intonation or anything. Every other guitar I have made had vertical grain and they went out sometimes but not very often. I must be thinking of something different than what you guys are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 wood moves across the grain, that thing will go in and out of intonation sparatically depending on what day it is. so you are saying if the grain was horizontal if you layed a guitar down on its back right? so the grain would be like this ----------- ----------- ----------- Instead of vetical ||||||| ||||||| ||||||| ||||||| Or am I still off? My MN guitar had horizontal grain and it never went out of intonation or anything. Every other guitar I have made had vertical grain and they went out sometimes but not very often. I must be thinking of something different than what you guys are talking about. I think he refers to the grain as running "perpendicular" to the neck....as in forming congruent adjacent angles (a T-shape). That would be a woodworking "faux pas". I think what you are referring to is quartersawn vs flatsawn which is quite acceptable. Even riftsawn works as long as the grain is oriented "parallel" with the strings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bartbrn Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 FYI, there's a wikipedia entry on the standard Janka hardness test for woods at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_Wood_Hardness_Rating "The hardness of wood varies with the direction of the wood grain. Testing on the surface of a plank, perpendicular to the grain, is said to be of "side hardness." Testing the cut surface of a stump is called a test of "end hardness." Starting with Theophilus Macenoeus (no idea what wood that represents, and Wiki's no help), at a Janka side hardness of 10000 pounds force ("the force required to embed an 11.28 mm (0.444 in) steel ball into wood to half the ball's diameter), the scale then drops down to 4500 pounds force for Lignum vitae/Guayacan / Pockenholz, which is used in cricket balls (they must be pretty small!). the scale then goes: Patagonian Rosewood / Curupay / Angico Preto / Piptadenia Macrocarpa / Brazilian Tiger Mahogany 3840 Brazilian Ebony 3692 Ipê / "Brazilian Walnut" / Lapacho 3684 African Pearlwood / Moabi 3680 Bolivian Cherry 3650 Lapacho 3640 Cumaru / "Brazilian Teak" sometimes: "Brazilian Chestnut," "Tiete Chestnut," "South American Chestnut," "Southern Chestnut" 3540 Ebony 3220 Brazilian Redwood / Paraju / Massaranduba 3190 Yvyraro 3040 Bloodwood 2900 Red Mahogany, Turpentine 2697 "Southern Chestnut" 2670 Spotted Gum 2473 Brazilian Cherry / Jatoba 2350 Mesquite 2345 "Golden Teak" 2330 Santos Mahogany, Bocote, Cabreuva, Honduran Rosewood 2200 Pradoo 2170 Brazilian Koa 2160 Sucupira sometimes "Brazilian Chestnut," "Tiete Chestnut," "Brazilian Walnut" 2140 Brushbox 2135 Karri 2030 Sydney Blue Gum 2023 Bubinga 1980 Cameron[disambiguation needed] 1940 Tallowwood 1933 Merbau 1925 Amendoim 1912 Jarrah 1910 Purpleheart 1860 Goncalo Alves / Tigerwood[disambiguation needed] 1850 Hickory / Pecan, Satinwood[disambiguation needed] 1820 Afzelia / Doussie / Australian Wormy Chestnut 1810 Bangkirai 1798 Rosewood 1780 African Padauk 1725 Blackwood 1720 Merbau 1712 Kempas 1710 Black Locust 1700 Highland Beech 1686 Wenge, Red Pine 1630 Tualang 1624 Zebrawood 1575 True Pine, Timborana 1570 Peroba 1557 Kambala 1540 Sapele / Sapelli 1510 Curupixa 1490 Sweet Birch 1470 Hard Maple / Sugar Maple 1450 Caribbean Walnut 1390 Coffee Bean 1390 Natural Bamboo (represents one species) 1380 Australian Cypress 1375 White Oak 1360 Tasmanian Oak 1350 Ribbon Gum 1349 Ash (White) 1320 American Beech 1300 Red Oak (Northern) 1290 Caribbean Heart Pine 1280 Yellow Birch, Iroko Kambala 1260 Movingui 1230 Heart Pine 1225 "Brazilian Mesquite" / Carapa Guianensis 1220 Larch 1200 Carbonized Bamboo (represents one species) 1180 Teak 1155 Cocobolo 1136 Brazilian Eucalyptus / Rose Gum 1125 Makore 1100 Siberian larch 1100 Peruvian Walnut 1080 Boreal 1023 Black Walnut/North American Walnut 1010 Teak 1000 Sakura 995 Black Cherry, Imbuia 950 Boire 940 Paper Birch 910 Eastern Red Cedar 900 Southern Yellow Pine (Longleaf) 870 Lacewood, Leopardwood 840 African Mahogany 830 Mahogany, Honduran Mahogany 800 Parana 780 Sycamore 770 Shedua 710 Southern Yellow Pine (Loblolly and Shortleaf) 690 Douglas Fir 660 Western Juniper 626 Alder (Red) 590 Larch 590 Chestnut 540 Hemlock 500 Western White Pine 420 Basswood 410 Eastern White Pine 380 Balsa 100 As Janka hardness relates to density (relative percentage of interstitial air space to solids in a given volume of a wood type), and as air is a poor transmitter of sound waves, it follows that the harder a wood is, the better a sound transmitter it is (ignoring, for simplicity's sake, factors such as sap wood versus wood radially further from the center of the tree, and knot wood). Therefore, as we know, balsa, at 100 pounds force Janka, is a very poor sound transmitter, while Brazilian Ebony, at 3692 pounds force Janka, is an excellent sound transmitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthorn Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 It is somewhat misleading to state that air is a poor sound transmitter and that a stiffer wood is better. They have totally different frequency response characteristics, so air actually is a better sound transmitter for a range of frequencies than Brazilian Ebony is. Consider the impulse response of a length of steel. There is a very high pitch ringing which indicates that those higher frequencies propagate better in that material. This is also the basis of the tap tone in wood, etc. Also, you have to consider how it transmits longitudinal versus transverse waves, so a blanket statement that air is a poor transmitter (and the one that we always use) is not completely valid. Also, Janka hardness does not directly relate to density, it also takes into account the stiffness of the wood fibers. Consider a carbon nanotube structure that is composed primarily of air yet has stiffness on the order of steel. If these materials were on the microscale and we had a large sample of them, they would have the same Janka hardness. The interstitial airspace is only a factor if the fibers exhibit the same stiffness from sample to sample, which is not the case. Of course, density is a factor, but only a single factor of many when characterizing a material in this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mors Phagist Posted March 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Well, the Phillippian Mahogony neck is a no go. I was routing the truss rod cavity with a milling machine, which should've made it no problem. It wasn't a problem until the bit slipped down and went through the back of the neck. But, Ive got another cut of mahogany that Ive wanted to use, and I'll be more careful this time. XD About the grain, this picture fits the profile of my cut. The neck would be extending North to South from this. The wood below would be the majority of the body, with a bookmatched White walnut top, also similar to the one below. If someone could identify that mahogony type, that would be great too. Mahogany White walnut/Butternut But yeah. Is the grain going to be a problem if its something such as that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juntunen Guitars Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Well, the Phillippian Mahogony neck is a no go. I was routing the truss rod cavity with a milling machine, which should've made it no problem. It wasn't a problem until the bit slipped down and went through the back of the neck. But, Ive got another cut of mahogany that Ive wanted to use, and I'll be more careful this time. XD About the grain, this picture fits the profile of my cut. The neck would be extending North to South from this. The wood below would be the majority of the body, with a bookmatched White walnut top, also similar to the one below. If someone could identify that mahogony type, that would be great too. Mahogany White walnut/Butternut But yeah. Is the grain going to be a problem if its something such as that? Looks like African Mahogany to me. Could be wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthorn Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 You could route the trussrod channel all the way through the neck the whole length, then put in a skunk stripe (I'm personally kind of fond of skunk stripes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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