How To Stain Poplar For "sg Red"?

[Gellfex]

I've tried both Minwax red mahogany & red oak stains looking for that classic red SG color, and both are not nearly red enough, possibly due to the natural slight green tinge of poplar. I used to have a much redder mahogany but the mfr discontinued it. Do I need to use aniline dye, or is there some other line of stains I should look at?

Also any comments about the most practical clear coat method would be appreciated. I do have a gravity fed HVLP gun and I was eying the can of "ready to spray lacquer" in the auto parts store. At $22 I suspect it's cheapest way to go except for a spraycan, but maybe I should go oil poly instead for a more durable finish, it's for a 12 year olds travel guitar.

[Kammo1]

If it was me I would spray the whole guitar with 2-3 coats of a sealer or even clear lacquer then I would tint the lacquer with a red of your choice and then spray shader coats as they are called until the desired red is achieved. Once this is to the colour you want "STOP" and apply just clear coats to your desire until you have good coverage and a nice even coating ie probably with a lacquer 8-10 coats I'm guessing then leave it for at least 30+ days to harden fully then cut and polish, hope this helps

Edited June 29, 2011 by Kammo1

[Gellfex]

If it was me I would spray the whole guitar with 2-3 coats of a sealer or even clear lacquer then I would tint the lacquer with a red of your choice and then spray shader coats as they are called until the desired red is achieved. Once this is to the colour you want "STOP" and apply just clear coats to your desire until you have good coverage and a nice even coating ie probably with a lacquer 8-10 coats I'm guessing then leave it for at least 30+ days to harden fully then cut and polish, hope this helps

The tinting idea is interesting, but the 10 coats and month to cure + handwork sounds more like for a top line instrument than for a 1st build traveler. Maybe I can tint the oil urethane though.

[Kammo1]

Bro if it helps I switched to 2K clears about 10 years or more ago as like yourself the 30 day wait was not good for business and turnaround time for me so the 2K stuff was a must.

Normally even with this stuff I always allow at least 7-10 days cure then cut and polish as take it from me it "WILL" shrink back if you do it less than this time. After nearly 30+ years in the game I have found this is what works for me. Spraying 2K stuff is very very hazardous and do not even attempt to spray if you haven't got a good respirator and good extraction as you will do "PERMANENT" damage to your lungs, search this forum and you will see that almost 100% of guys will agree with what I have said. If its a rattlecan sprayjob that you're doing then again caution is also needed and always always wear a mask no matter what it is you're spraying "YES" even waterbased stuff, hope this helps.

[Gellfex]

Bro if it helps I switched to 2K clears about 10 years or more ago as like yourself the 30 day wait was not good for business and turnaround time for me so the 2K stuff was a must.

Normally even with this stuff I always allow at least 7-10 days cure then cut and polish as take it from me it "WILL" shrink back if you do it less than this time. After nearly 30+ years in the game I have found this is what works for me. Spraying 2K stuff is very very hazardous and do not even attempt to spray if you haven't got a good respirator and good extraction as you will do "PERMANENT" damage to your lungs, search this forum and you will see that almost 100% of guys will agree with what I have said. If its a rattlecan sprayjob that you're doing then again caution is also needed and always always wear a mask no matter what it is you're spraying "YES" even waterbased stuff, hope this helps.

I do appreciate the advice, but you're simply describing a "pro" quality level far above the job requirement! I'm not a luthier, but I am a self employed pro craftsman (entertainment industry) for 30 years. A big part of any job is identifying "how good does it need to be?" You can noodle any job to the point of diminishing returns and unprofitably. I have a cabinetmaker friend who's a marvelous craftsman but can't seem to make any money because he's unable to give quality appropriate to the price point.

I've already put in more hours on my son's "inexpensive" Steinberger style travel guitar than I ever thought needed for taking a neck & hardware off a pawnshop Epiphone SG, making a body and machining a tuning tailpiece. I sure have learned a lot about guitar making, but given the low quality parts I doubt the finish quality will effect the sound much and the boy is going to beat the crap out of it anyway! The current version with an unfinished MDF prototype body is currently at camp with him, it didn't seem wise to do a new body beforehand.

Given all that, is there a good reason why a sprayed or wiped oil polyurethane finish is a bad idea, assuming I can find a red enough stain?

[ihocky2]

I guess the question here is how good of a resulting finish do you want how much time do you feel is worth putting into it. 30 days to cure is a lot fo time, but if you look at it as business it is not costing you anything. It is simply time, not man hours since it is hanging there and not taking anything from your schedule.

As to getting the color right, I would first start off DYING the wood close to a mahogany color, not mahogany red, but true mahogany (a reddish brown). Then seal that with a coat of clear and then spray several coats of cherry red tint to acheive the Gibson color. The SG gets it's color from the mahogany base, red grain filler and cherry red toner coats. You are starting with a whitish, grayish, greenish wood. So you either need to spend a lot of time mixing stains and testing on scraps to get the same color or get your base wood close to the correct color then add your toner color.

Wiped finishes are cut heavily with their selected oil, basically all they are doing is thinning the poly to make it easier to wipe. To get good protection you will need to apply far more coats of any wipeable finish than brushing the base finish straight up or spraying from rattle cans.

The down sides are

A handwiped will still not get a nice level finish and will require far more coats to get good protection. At one or two coats a day you are talking a weeks worth of time to get enough coats, probably longer. To get a nice finish it will still require hand rubbing and polishing. Most hardware store grade poly's require up to 30 days or more depending on the brand to get a hard enough curing to be able to wet sand and get a nice finish.

Brushing finishes lay on heavier, but leave brush marks. The good side is it takes less time to build enough coats to protect the finish. This again requires hand finishing and still requires 30 days or more to properly cure. Some poly's and acrylic lacquers just never seem to fully cure. You can rub them out and polish them, leave it one a towel for a day or two or in the guitar case and the material leaves imprints in the finish.

Sprayable finishes tend to leave an orange peal effect and require hand rubbing and polishing. These go on faster and require a little less work if you are carefull in your spraying. These build faster than wipeable but rattle cans are slower than brushing in build time.

You have to decide what quality finish you are looking for. If you want a nice flat mirror shine like any store bought guitar, then you have to be willing to wait the proper time and take the proper finishing and polishing steps. If brush marks and wipe marks and grain showing from shrink back are acceptable to you, than all you need to do is apply finish and let it cure. In my experience you can do things right or you can do them fast, but not both.

[Gellfex]

Thanks Ihocky, that's pretty comprehensive. I'm not familiar with the tinting and dying products, can you give a few brand & product names? I guess I wasn't planning on a wet sanded finish, (I did plenty of that in my modelmaking days at the start of my career and hated it) maybe I could put the kid to work on his own guitar. But we sure didn't wait weeks to sand, hours at best, it was advertising! But I guess we didn't put on as many coats as you guys are describing.

Like I said, I'm reluctant to put huge effort and material purchase/shipping expense into a finish likely to get more beat up than even the average guitar, despite the gig bag my mother has made for it. I guess I just have to decide among the options and it'll be what it'll be.

[ihocky2]

Trans-tint and Trans-color are the same product, one is sold at StewMac and the other at wood worker supplies like Woodcraft (I forget which one is at which). They can be mixed with water, alchohol, lacquer or polyurethane to make either dyes or tint coats (dyes are absorbed into the woods such as with water or alcohol and tint coats sit on top.

Deft is an okay nitro lacquer that can be bought at either Walmart or Lowes in spray cans at a resonable price. I find that it does dry a little on the harder side for lacquers making it a little easier to chip when it gets banged. But it is perfectly clear so it doesn't change your base color and it is formulated to prevent cracking, which most nitro lacquer does with age. I think I usually used about 6-8 cans when I was still using them, but I forget exactly how many now. But is does take 30 days to dry enough, once you can no longer press into it with your thumbnail and leave a mark it is cured enough. I have never used them, but ReRanch is supposed to make great products and the cost is reasonable. The forum over there is also great for matching original finishes and they mostly use the ReRanch spray cans.

[DarkAvenger]

As far as the dye goes, I would add a bit of shellac to the mix(best if made from fresh from flakes) This will give you a stable and solid tinted undercoat while keeping the finish thin.

Nitro, and shellac for that matter, are somewhat delicate finishes offering low amounts of protection, not my idea finish for a guitar getting 'heavy use'. a Polyurethane(2 part with catalyst) is IDEAL as it offers good protection and can produce a glass like finish fairly easy. Another option not commonly discussed is polyester. This will produce a nice finish can be a bit easier to work with, but it shoots thicker and could effect tone more. If done right, it should be a good finish. I generally avoid rattlecans especially if you already have a HVLP gun.

I would try for a poly finish, safety being the number one concern. ALWAYS use a respirator(not just a painter's mask), and you need to work out a way to ventilate. Not saying it's wise, but if you plan on only doing a few finishes with poly, you may be able to work out a makeshift ventilation system, but I'm not sure what your abilities/limitations are. 2 part Poly, once the safety concerns are met, might end up being the easier and quicker way to go. Cure time between coats is two days, 5 days to buff, and will require as little as 2-3 spray sessions. Total finish time: about 2 weeks

[Gellfex]

As far as the dye goes, I would add a bit of shellac to the mix(best if made from fresh from flakes) This will give you a stable and solid tinted undercoat while keeping the finish thin.

Nitro, and shellac for that matter, are somewhat delicate finishes offering low amounts of protection, not my idea finish for a guitar getting 'heavy use'. a Polyurethane(2 part with catalyst) is IDEAL as it offers good protection and can produce a glass like finish fairly easy. Another option not commonly discussed is polyester. This will produce a nice finish can be a bit easier to work with, but it shoots thicker and could effect tone more. If done right, it should be a good finish. I generally avoid rattlecans especially if you already have a HVLP gun.

I would try for a poly finish, safety being the number one concern. ALWAYS use a respirator(not just a painter's mask), and you need to work out a way to ventilate. Not saying it's wise, but if you plan on only doing a few finishes with poly, you may be able to work out a makeshift ventilation system, but I'm not sure what your abilities/limitations are. 2 part Poly, once the safety concerns are met, might end up being the easier and quicker way to go. Cure time between coats is two days, 5 days to buff, and will require as little as 2-3 spray sessions. Total finish time: about 2 weeks

Thanks, that's interesting advice. I've never shot polyester although I've laid up plenty with glass. The automotive stuff usually has a green tint to it, but perhaps that's due the cobalt and other additive's they use. I haven't shot 2 part poly in ages, not since I used some Imron decades ago, really toxic stuff requiring a supplied air respirator. I have a pretty good spray booth and real respirators, so maybe that's a way to go.

So you think tint & seal it with shellac and then top coat it urethane. But you don't think shooting the 1 part glossy floor product would give me a "good enough" finish given the beater nature of this instrument? I also suspect this will not be the last body I end up making for this one, he's only 12!

[DarkAvenger]

Wiping on shellac with tint is easy. I do one quick coat of clear (shouldn't need it for poplar, but stops botching on maple), wait a few minutes (tint the shellac while you wait) wipe on color and give it day. Test on scrape before hand, you can always tint the first layer of poly to enhance the look