My Second Build Attempt

[Maiden69]

They are coming out great. The rear was beggin for more pore filler, CA glue is your friend... as long as you don't inhale it! I have grained filled wih it mahogany and black limba with great results. The front are looking good, a little more clear and some wet sanding and you should be set.

And that cocobolo for $7 was a steal!

[Pestvic]

Jesus those top pics are a tease!! That burst and blue both look amazing. I wish I had some of that wood!!! I cant wait to see when all of that is in guitar form :-P haha awesome man! Incredible work for your second build

[Prostheta]

If they smell it is because they are still outgassing. Leave them be!

[sdshirtman]

If they smell it is because they are still outgassing. Leave them be!

Unfortunately I'm thinking the same thing. I'm dying to finish up this build and this curing time is really testing my patience.

Here is a tip for anyone else following this thread. Dont use deft. It shoots smoothly out of the can and is inexpensive but just takes too damn long to cure. I should have learned my lesson the first time. I'm going to seek out other clear coat options for my next build.

[Prostheta]

So Deft is some kind of rattle can then? I would certainly leave it as long as is possible. Even when it stops smelling of solvents, the sheer volume present in the original mixture means that some is likely still present in the paint.

You know the best cure (no joke intended) for patience? Get building a couple more guitars whilst these gas off and cure properly. I'm sure there are ways of accelerating the process, but just giving them time is a far less intrusive method. I'm sure I have waited for guitars to arrive out of the EMS cloud for longer periods than paint cures. -_-

No really. Get building and every time you get the temptation to pull them out and potentially dent up the finish, think twice and move forward with another project. Time moves quicker when you aren't sitting on your hands waiting!

[Pestvic]

Don't rush it, Deft actually comes out pretty damn awesome and cures pretty durable. Curing time sucks yes but its worth it later if you don't have 2 part finishes. I've used deft enough before to let you know that you can probably sand and lightly buff right now and it will be fine, just let it cure on its own after. Just don't ding it. I did with mine and kept extra care with mine in the case and all and it cured up nicely over a couple months. I never got any depressions or anything in the finish from the case or whatever.

To this day she looks great

Then again it sounds like you hit it pretty heavy with the deft and that means that its probably going to be harder for it to off gas. I usually hit mine with light coats and let them cure until I cant smell them to much at all. Then I give it the next coats.

In this case, I'd agree with Prostheta and try another build. maybe even put some lights on it to try and speed the cure process.

[Prostheta]

My reservation with lights is that it could cause the solvents to mobilise too quickly causing all kinds of artefacts in the paint like pops or whatever. Best leave it to do what it will. In the meantime I look forward to SDShirtman's next build(s)!

For what it is worth - and I am unsure of whether they are as common in Aus as the EU - I would highly recommend the 2k in a can where the hardener is in a separate compartment in the rattlecan which is only mixed prior to spraying. That stuff is dry within the hour and cured within a day or two. Unbelievable stuff despite the somewhat heavy price per can. Next time I have to clear an instrument that's what I'll be using again, barring access to proper auto spraying equipment of course. The waiting time on premixed rattlecans is silly.

[Pestvic]

That's good to know. Luckily I haven't had any problems like that. I'll stop using lights though. Oh, and are you talking about the spraymax sprays? I wanted to try those out but wasn't sure. Like you said, the prices are up there :-P.

[Maiden69]

My Deft guitars cured rather quickly. I think that I was sanding and polishing them after a week. I don't like the durability of the paint, all those guitars got damaged in transport by the case fabric. Every single one of them. And the ones that I painted with Stew Mac nitro where fine. I would recommend next time if you don't have a spray set up, to get Behlen nitro and use the Preval system to paint them. 100 times better paint than DEFT.

On tho the guitars... I would go ahead and sand them down wet with 600 o break the surface, just in case it flashed too fast and is not letting the gasses out like it should. That also happens when too wet coats are applied.

[Pestvic]

Maiden, you probably had those issues with deft cause you sanded so quickly. usually after 3-4 weeks of sitting its good enough to sand and buff without case damage (in my experience). I agree with the stew mac clear though. Its hard, and cures a lot faster. I have too look into the behlen now though sounds interesting.

Oh yeah, I agree with maiden, Scuff the finish. Hes probably right about it flashing and not letting it off gas. I did this the first time I used deft when I coated to heavy. After I sanded it the smell went away after a couple days. (by this I mean I couldn't smell the deft unless I put my nose right next to the guitar. Instead of smelling it right away when I walked into my makeshift spray booth at the time.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Pestvic

[sdshirtman]

Maiden, My first build got the deft treatment. I let that one sit for 30 days and during the buffing stage I got marks on the back from the towel it was sitting on and had to re-sand that part. It buffed to a nice glossy finish but 4 months later you could see grain marks where it shrank a little further. Its been finished for around 2 years now and you can still leave a mark with your fingernail if you press hard.

Maybe I'm just laying too much on. I dont know. But I'm done with the deft. I should have known better but I guess thats part of the learning process.

I'd really love to get a decent compressor and a gun in the future. I used to shoot lacquer and 2 part finishes in my early 20's finishing cabinets but that was a long time ago and with an old school high pressure gun. Now everyone uses HVLP guns and I have no experience with those yet.

I might scuff the back open this weekend to let it try and breathe if I can get to it.

BTW Pestvic that guitar in that pic is way cool.

Edited June 29, 2012 by sdshirtman

[Levi79]

Great attention to detail in this build! Excited to see the final products. Especially that blue one!

[Pestvic]

Thanks SD I am also done with deft. I'm going to use stew macs spray until i can get a spray setup

[Maiden69]

Nope, when you speed the process and the paint hasn't cure, it get's messed up when you are sanding buffing like sd mentions below. Mine was hard, no marks with my nails or sitting on top of the microfiber while I polished it. 2 years after buiding them, I went to Korea, and that's when the damage happened, also, the foam on one of my stands ate through the DEFT clear.

Maiden, My first build got the deft treatment. I let that one sit for 30 days and during the buffing stage I got marks on the back from the towel it was sitting on and had to re-sand that part. It buffed to a nice glossy finish but 4 months later you could see grain marks where it shrank a little further. Its been finished for around 2 years now and you can still leave a mark with your fingernail if you press hard.

That is beacuse you layed a too thick of a coat, or didn't allow enough time between coats. Happened to me the first time I painted with automotive lacquer. I layed coat after coat, no runs or nothing, but I didn't allow enough time between coats, so it became one thick coat that flashed on top and didn't allow the lower coats to cure. After 2 months in the shed, I took it out, and started peeling the paint away. The first layer was like gel!

Now if I use nitro I shoot may be 3 coats a day, the next day I sand with 400 to level, then shoot 3 more, the next day I may sand with 600 or 800 and shoot one medium coat followed by an almost 50/50 diluted last coat. After this I may have to sand with 1500 and polish after a week or more.

[sdshirtman]

I did in fact put quite a few coats on there. I shot my coats in the rule of three's for the most part but I didnt sand level between coats. In between each group of three it sat for at least 24 hours.

Either way I just got them back out tonight and was going to give it a light wet sand with some 800 or 1000 grit paper. On closer inspection and under some better light (with my readers on this time) I found a ton of pinholes. I guess I just didnt catch these last week when I took pictures.

This is about center on the back of the guitar and towards the back. It didn't look like that when it was sprayed.

This is the belly cut side.

It gets worse. This is the bottom edge.

And the other side.

And last but not least the side of the neck pocket. Notice how the inside of the bottom horn is perfect and glossy?

The entire body looked like that when I put it away to cure.

The top is good. But these new found problems have me pretty disappointed. I'm going to ask everyones opinion here as to what I should do next.

Unless someone here or on the my les paul forums has some magic solution I'm thinking I have only two choices.

One is I wet-sand the back and sides as far as I can comfortably without burning through, and then respray the back and hope that the pinholes magically fill in.

The other is a sand the sides and back down to bare wood. Grain fill the thing again and re-stain it then start the whole clear coat process again.

Both choices are going to set me back much further than I anticipated.

At this moment I'm right between the super pissed off I found this stage, and the think about how to correct this and acceptance stage.

This is definitely testing in patience.

Edited July 6, 2012 by sdshirtman

[Pestvic]

What I do with stuff like that is just drop fill with some poly or nitro and let those spots build up before I shoot the clear. I usually have problem spots like that where the wood sucks the finish and what not... It WILL eventually build up enough to sand to a nice finish though. I just did this on my green guitar to seal it and it came out really smooth and filled. What I did was sprayed a nice thin coat over the whole guitar and then hit those problem spots a little heavier. After it cured enough to scuff It made the sanding back a lot easier and faster to get an even finish.

[Prostheta]

They are either from contaminants or (more likely) trapped solvents trying to escape, as far as I know. At least they ARE escaping!

[Muzz]

Yep I think Pestvic is right, just keep spraying and sanding until everything levels out, I would check your finish for Prostheta's idea there might be contaminants or solvent problems before you do though, good luck with it, guitar building never goes according to plan, I try and tell myself it's character building, where's the emoticon for wry smile?

[Prostheta]

I'll go out on a limb here and say that those pops look like lacquer sinking from grain filling, or possibly even solvents popping up from the grain. They don't seem to occur on the binding (didn't you seal this?) and only on the back wood.

This is in a way good because you can at the very least rule out contamination. If you have some of the lacquer left over, spray some into a paint can lid and use a toothpick to individually drop fill each and every one. Then put it back where it came from and leave it. ;-)

Meanwhile. What's next?

[Pestvic]

Thats exactly my though. It was an unsealed grain its sinking back into. That toothpick method is the best. Just keep adding drops until its cured and pretty near close to being level. Then when you start spraying it will be one awesome smooth coat

[USMCHueston0311]

Man... When Pat sims from sims custom shop, where I am currently working finishes a guitar, he takes a guitar un-grain filled and un-sealed, shoots 2 sealer coats of sealer and blocks them each out between coats. this totally fills the grain and gives a perfectly level surface to clear over. Then 3 coats of clear and water-sand and buffing... The right way to paint a guitar. No messing with grain fillers. Use a poly sealer blocked in between.... check out www.simscustomshop.com

[demonx]

They are either from contaminants or (more likely) trapped solvents trying to escape, as far as I know. At least they ARE escaping!

These holes are called solvent pops.

It is either this or another possibility is too much heat. Definitely one of these three things.

I have no idea what "deft" is so I'm not going to comment on that, but if you're getting solvent pops, you're doing something wrong.

Probably either spraying too thick, too much or too soon. I read something about you spraying in threes and then repeating etc - paint can't do this. It needs to cure before you sand back and repaint. Normally a minimum a week if you plan on sanding and re clearing. If its only a day or few days, then the clear underneath is still curing and this could also cause solvent pops.

Imagine wet paint with a dry skin over it, then you sand the dry skin and paint over it, but underneath is still soft and trying to cure. This is one sort of solvent pop and in worst case blistering.

Contamination could be from something in the timber trying to escape, oils from your fingers. Skin flakes from your body or just plain old dust. Could be from mixing products not meant to be together. Could be something in the air coming from your spray set up (if using one).

Too much heat can cause hardeners to gass off and cause solvent pops while the other products are still trying to sure.

My guess is its most likely the too much too soon and not enough trime in between.

[demonx]

Man... When Pat sims ... The right way to paint a guitar. No messing with grain fillers.

This works on some timbers (maple for example requires no fill), I know because I've used this method for years. I use clear to seal however. I've experimented with different sealers and never found one I was happy with.

However when you get a timber with big grain I've had to repeat over so many times to get a glass like finish that the end product had received eighteen layers of paint, most of which got sanded away just to fill. This was in my earlier days if painting guitars - my methods are far evolved since then.

It's timber like this that I now grain fill, either with clear epoxy or a colored filler.

2k is too expensive and time consuming to waste.

[Maiden69]

Man... When Pat sims from sims custom shop, where I am currently working finishes a guitar, he takes a guitar un-grain filled and un-sealed, shoots 2 sealer coats of sealer and blocks them each out between coats. this totally fills the grain and gives a perfectly level surface to clear over. Then 3 coats of clear and water-sand and buffing... The right way to paint a guitar. No messing with grain fillers. Use a poly sealer blocked in between.... check out www.simscustomshop.com

Like mentioned above, it will work with tight grain woods only. For solid color painting you could use a heavy polyerster primer (like Slick Sand) and get away with it, but not for clear finishes.

[verhoevenc]

Also, you can get away with that with some of the thicker finishes that don't shrink back. If you tried that with nitro... you're just asking for the pores to show back up down the road as things settle.

Chris