sdshirtman Posted September 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 A little more progress. For starters I got my parts in. And my first screw up. My bandsaw has a small gap just to the right of the blade that I didnt really take into consideration. I used it to cut my fretboard and ran it down each side thinking I had done fine untill..... ..I turned it over and saw all this tear out. I immediately thought I had trashed some expensive ebony. I couldnt really do much so I put the template I made on it to see if I could salvage it. It fit pretty tight and I had my doubts but ran it through anyways to see if It could be salvaged. In the end I managed to save it out of pure luck. The bottom edge still has some rough edges. If I wasnt going to bind it I would be screwed I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Nice save. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DogNate Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Looking clean... keep it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted September 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 I think I may have gotten myself in over my head here and I need some advice. I've scoured this and other forums for the answer or a tutorial but cant find a definitive answer. Let me explain. My design calls for an ebony neck which I had intended to dye jet black (using Fiebing's Oil Dye) with some simple inlay followed with maple binding. I had planned on first doing the inlay, then radiusing the board to level the inlay. Then I planned on dying the board as to keep the dye from migrating onto the maple binding and obviously as not to sand off the dye during the radiusing process (duh). Then I planned gluing on the maple binding, then a little more finishing work on the radius to bring the binding to the same level as the board and then working my way up with finer grit sandpaper to final finish the fretboard finishing with 1000 grit. ( I plan on fretting it after its shaped and finished) I've done a test on some scrap ebony and am running into problems. Mainly that the dye is getting slightly sanded off because its not soaking deep enough into the ebony and secondly and more importantly, the ebony dust is horribly fouling the maple binding when sanding. I tried blowing it out with a compressor and also tried using some alcohol and I cant seem to remove all of it. I've read that naptha can work but I dont have any handy. I'm going to buy some today but I really dont know how much more efective its going to be than alcohol. I did read in another forum to use a scraper on the binding to bring it level vs. sandpaper. I dont have a scraper but tried this with a razor and it seemed to work decent but left an less than desirable inconsistent edge. It was also tediusly slow as my binding is a good 3mm taller than I need. Maybe this is the solution and I just need to practice my scraping technique. For the dye sanding off I tried re-dying the ebony after the binding was applied and leveled by masking off the binding using 3m vinyl automotive masking tape. It worked well on my first test piece but on the second test piece some of the dye bled into the maple where the fret slots are. I should say on my first test piece I radiused the board with the binding then carefully sanded just the maple edge using a fresh piece of paper as not to foul it with the ebony. Very tedious. Then I reverse masked off the ebony and added a few strokes of tru-oil to just the maple. After the tru-oil dried I masked off the maple then sparingly applied the black dye with a rag. As a side note here I thought I could get away with not wearing a latex glove while dying such a small piece and I now will be wearing black fingertips for the next few days. Sheesh. It seemed the tru-oil helped to keep the dye from migrating in the first test piece unlike the second un-oiled test piece. Now this seemed to work just ok but I was only dealing with an inch and a half or so piece. I'm not sure how well this method would work with two full fretboards without risking a screw up. The other thing is it doesnt solve the problem of the ebony dust migrating and fouling the maple during the final finish. Seeing these results I'm afraid to move forward with that method. I did by some ebony binding and that would pretty much solve all these problems, but thats not really what I want. I want ebony with maple binding. I know there has GOT to be an easier way to pull this off. I just dont know what it is yet or how to do it. So please chime in here. I'm at an impasse and need some help ASAP. I'm all ears and thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 That is a big issue with maple and ebony,and everyone struggles with it.I use a vacuum at frequent intervals and denatured alcohol as a wipe,but I have often wondered if acrylized wood might be easier..as in acrylized maple for the binding...basically the wood finish is pressurized through the entire piece,so there should be no pores for the ebony dust to get into http://www.galleryhardwoods.com/stabilized.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 I was thinking along the same lines. What about soaking in water thin CA into the maple to seal it away from the dye and ebony dust? SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted September 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 That is a big issue with maple and ebony,and everyone struggles with it.I use a vacuum at frequent intervals and denatured alcohol as a wipe,but I have often wondered if acrylized wood might be easier..as in acrylized maple for the binding...basically the wood finish is pressurized through the entire piece,so there should be no pores for the ebony dust to get into http://www.galleryhardwoods.com/stabilized.htm Thanks for that info. That might be a potential solution if they have maple strips. I was thinking along the same lines. What about soaking in water thin CA into the maple to seal it away from the dye and ebony dust? SR Do you actually think it would penetrate enough? I did go and purchase a decent scraper today. I'm going to try that on another test piece and see if that works after I practice my scraper sharpening skills and scraping technique. Any other comments anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 That might be a potential solution if they have maple strips. Well,not exactly..I mean,I don't know if they have it in strips,but I know you can get custom sized pieces...and the acrylic impregnation is all the way through,so if you bought,say,a 20" by 1" by 3" piece impregnated with clear acrylic,you could cut binding out of it for the next several years.... There are other possibilities,like buying a custom piece slightly oversized for a neck and getting binding from it then making a neck with the rest,etc... Believe me,I want to try some of it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 That might be a potential solution if they have maple strips. Well,not exactly..I mean,I don't know if they have it in strips,but I know you can get custom sized pieces...and the acrylic impregnation is all the way through,so if you bought,say,a 20" by 1" by 3" piece impregnated with clear acrylic,you could cut binding out of it for the next several years.... There are other possibilities,like buying a custom piece slightly oversized for a neck and getting binding from it then making a neck with the rest,etc... Believe me,I want to try some of it myself. i have used the stuff from larry for binding before - i saved offcuts from a birdseye maple fretboard it was used on this and i had no issues keeping it clean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 although now i remember there was one big downside to this process - larry told me lacquer wont stick to it. i had already lacquered some with rustins plastic coating - which did bond to it just fine, but normal lacquers may be a problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 It is too late into the process to change tack now, however adding a buffer strip of black binding (0.5mm - 1.0mm) would have allowed you a lot more room for error in dyeing the Ebony. It is nigh on invisible next to dyed Ebony as well: Before: After: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linny Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Nice fret job man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted September 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Thanks Wez. I'm hoping that I dont have to resort to adding more cost to an already expensive project but that might have to be what I do as a last case resort. Prostheta, Its not to late in the process to go with ebony binding. I actually did buy some as a last resort as pictured previously. I do actually like the look of the ebony on ebony but I really want to have the maple binding if possible. If anything else at this point just to try and conquer this problem and gain some knowledge and skill. I have my scraper and I'm doing a few more experiments today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 I didn't actually use Ebony binding! That is actually black ABS straight up against a piece of "Indian" Ebony which I subsequently dyed black to remove the brown sheen. The reason I mentioned this job specifically is that in your case an ABS layer would provide a nice barrier preventing dye from migrating to the Maple from the Ebony, plus it gives a nice wide margin of error when you mask off the inner and outer areas. CA sealing and the other techniques mentioned will help hugely of course. I was pleasantly surprised how well it blended in with the Ebony in terms of colour and sheen. You can easily discern the two separate materials in the first picture (especially because of the fret slots) although you can just about see it in the last two. I didn't use scrap Ebony to carry out my binding because....umm....actually I forget why now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted September 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 I didn't actually use Ebony binding! That is actually black ABS straight up against a piece of "Indian" Ebony which I subsequently dyed black to remove the brown sheen. The reason I mentioned this job specifically is that in your case an ABS layer would provide a nice barrier preventing dye from migrating to the Maple from the Ebony, plus it gives a nice wide margin of error when you mask off the inner and outer areas. CA sealing and the other techniques mentioned will help hugely of course. I was pleasantly surprised how well it blended in with the Ebony in terms of colour and sheen. You can easily discern the two separate materials in the first picture (especially because of the fret slots) although you can just about see it in the last two. I didn't use scrap Ebony to carry out my binding because....umm....actually I forget why now.... Interesting and thank you. Oh and nice fret ends by the way. As far as the ca glue sealing. Whats the procedure for this? I'm guessing that after my unbound fretboard is maybe 90% radiused I'd cut or sand the maple binding down to just over the height/thickness of the fretboard edge and simply coat the two edges that arent to be glued with ca glue before binding. If this is correct is maple porous enough to soak up the ca glue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) Definitely. Water-thin CA is the key here, and you can cut it with Acetone as a thinner if the adhesive properties are not needed. Not sure of the best method of application as I tend to stay away from CA in large quantities due to fumes and the tendency for it to end up in places that I don't want it to go! Asking my wife to pull a guitar neck and CA tube off my hand is not something I like repeating. Edited September 5, 2011 by Prostheta 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Did you ever get the water thin on some wood that you didn't want it on and try sand it out? It takes a minute or 60. As far as for detail applications, I pout a little into the bottom of a dixie cup (it's amazing how long it will stay in liquid form when it's in a little puddle like that), and paint it on with a cheap fine tip artist's brush. The hairs in the tip will fuze together in seconds but it will still carry glue to where you want it. Mask off your work and be prepared to have to scrape the edge of the tape away. You may have to sand some lumps out when it's all said and done......and like all new procedures, test on scrap. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted September 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 I havent been able to get too much done in the last week or so. I've been having some knee issues and it turns out Ive got a torn menuscus. I'll be having some surgery done in a few weeks and hope fully be able to close that chapter. Heres a little bit of progress though. I thinned out the back of my headstock. I was going to use a safety planer for this but this was out and it seemed much quicker. With that done I tried my hand at cutting out some simple shapes in mother of pearl. Practicing on some scrap. And the results. My first inlay ever. Its a boomerang. I've decided to do this as fret markers on the Aussie themed guitar. It just seems it would tie it in better. I thought this was going to be much harder than it was. With the first test done I went about cutting the 12th fret inlay which was a little more delicate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted September 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 I didnt document the whole process but I cut out my initials and some very small stars for the Aussie southern cross and got them inlaid on the ebony headstock plate and got that glued up to the headstock. Then tonight I trimmed up my truss rod access hole and trimmed up the edges on the router with a pattern bit. I still have to finish cutting the fret markers and inlay the fretboard. Then I'll be binding the headstock and fretboard and dealing with the maple binding and ebony dust issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 It seems like such a shame to have to install truss rod covers at some point now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm99 Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Would a transparent truss rod cover be stupid? That cavity just looks so darn good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted September 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Would a transparent truss rod cover be stupid? That cavity just looks so darn good. It didnt cross my mind till you mentioned it. I might have to experiment with a truss cover made of smoked plexi or something. We'll see. I made a bending iron from some simple parts at home depot. I set up my router to cut some binding slots on the headstock but stopped short of cutting the channels because I needed to figure out how deep I wanted the binding to be around the edges so I could match the thickness of the fingerboard binding so I decided to finish the inlay so that I could radius and bind the fretboard. I'll sand and radius the board tomorrow and hopefully get them bound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Very impressive inlay work. I agree with the others about the truss rod access being striking. I wouldn't cover them up at all. To me they are definitely a feature. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted September 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 (edited) I've changed my mind on the binding. I think that maple on maple would look redundant and offer no contrast so I've decided on a darker wood. I'm going to use walnut on the fingerboard and body. I was having a problem figuring out how to clamp the wood binding the the board so I made a jig that allows even pressure across the sides. It works well if it weren't for some bone head mistakes. Fist off was I didnt use any wax paper between the wood and jig on the first one. The result was almost a disaster but I managed to tap it out without destroying it thank god. The second mistake was on the second board. I didnt seat the binding all the way flat and left a thin gap on the edge where the binding would meet the neck. I ended up removing the binding from that side with a heat gun. I'm so glad I was able to save it. It could have been a costly lesson. For the end piece I clamped the board to the bench and clamped another scrap piece of wood behind it at an angle. I used the wedge to add pressure to the binding. Simple but effective. In retrospect I wish I would have mitered the end piece of binding. I have no idea why I didnt. It just didnt cross my mind till it was done. Chalk it up to being a "noob". I do think the darker binding will look much better though. Edited September 22, 2011 by sdshirtman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted September 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Few more pics. Oh and I almost forgot. My neighbor gave me this awesome delta drill press for free last weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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