eddiewarlock Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Yup, fretting ebony fretboards are a pain in the arse. I love them, but hell...even using stew mac´s fretting saw and frets, don´t guarantee the the neck won´t backbow. Thanks god for dual action truss rods... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted October 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 I'm hoping the backbow thing doesnt become an issue. The frets are a little tight going in. I just love ebony boards though. I'be been measuring each fret slot and meticulously grinding down the edges so it will fit. I've got 9 in and so far so good. What I haven't done is add an ca glue. Should I? I'm just thinking of the potential mess. If absolutely necessary can I retroactively to this before I file the ends and dress them? I have some water thin CA and I'm imagining I can just run a thin bead across the side and it will wick in, then I clean the excess off with acetone. One of the reasons I DONT want to do this is I'm concerned about the acetone removing some of the dye from the board. As a side note I've been slightly bending the very ends of the frets where the tang has been clipped off so that It's positively (hopefully) flush with the binding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 I've got a build on the boil right now with an Ebony board which I'm doing hemisemi frets on. I plan on using a small amount of Titebond in the slots since it is easier to clean up water-based stuff than it is CA, which just spreads and has fumes from hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 I'm hoping the backbow thing doesnt become an issue. The frets are a little tight going in. I just love ebony boards though. I'be been measuring each fret slot and meticulously grinding down the edges so it will fit. I've got 9 in and so far so good. What I haven't done is add an ca glue. Should I? I'm just thinking of the potential mess. If absolutely necessary can I retroactively to this before I file the ends and dress them? I have some water thin CA and I'm imagining I can just run a thin bead across the side and it will wick in, then I clean the excess off with acetone. One of the reasons I DONT want to do this is I'm concerned about the acetone removing some of the dye from the board. As a side note I've been slightly bending the very ends of the frets where the tang has been clipped off so that It's positively (hopefully) flush with the binding. Gluing with CA is a bit of an art. I usually just line the bottom of the tang with thick CA and set and press the fret one at a time. Taking care to wipe any excess off immediately with a clean paper towel. Some guys carefully wax the board right up to the fret slot (I found it to tedious and decide to just be really careful). The real problem with any glue is the chance of staining the board. Personally I am still trying to find a favorite glue for gluing frets. On guitars with hard fretboards (bloodwood, ebony, cocobolo) I haven't bothered to on recent builds. For me the tangs hold more than enough so no reason to glue. Also on the necks I did last year where I did glue I could hear the CA crack as I flexed the necks so while I think it helps it is not a necessity. The one thing it does do is fill the voids under the fret and <voodoo> supposedly create better tone by removing the hollow ring from the fret </voodoo> Not sure I believe it is really significant but others swear by it. Since you have binding you can't really inject it in with a syringe from the side after. I know back in the day (late 80's) I was taught a sure fire re-fret method using epoxy. The idea was to widen the slots with the dremel until the frets dropped in (still had to be snug for intonation reasons). Then glue the frets in with epoxy, clamping them in for 24 hours. The only problem I had with this method was that the radius on the fret had to be perfect before clamping. It made for dead straight fret work and easy repair as all you needed was a little heat to remove a marred fret. It felt very un-luthier like but it worked. edit: wicking and acetone sound like a messy combination in your situation. I would leave it be. The Ebony will hold the frets in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted October 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Ok thanks RestorationAD. I'm going to continue without the CA glue. Prostheta , Just curious. Would titebond even adhere to the metal frets and make a difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Ok thanks RestorationAD. I'm going to continue without the CA glue. Prostheta , Just curious. Would titebond even adhere to the metal frets and make a difference? Just my 2 cents. I am sure Prostheta has some advice as well. The necks I did 3 years ago I used titebond. It was easier to clean up with a damp rag (not wet). It also made the nice cracking noise when I flexed the necks... so under normal circumstances I think it bonds fine. But it is brittle and necks flex and move. I haven't pulled any of those frets to see but I would believe that the titebond separated from the frets when I flexed the necks. I know you guys think I am crazy flexing a neck enough to hear it crack but I have seen more than one guitarist push on the horn and the neck to drop the pitch and I like to make sure my necks handle that properly. edit: I also knew the cracking noise was the glue in the fretslots because the necks I didn't use glue on don't make any noise. glue in the fret slots being the only diff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 i don´t think titebond glues metal to wood...i prefer CA, but yes, it is a pain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 i don´t think titebond glues metal to wood It doesn't..it is just used to "refresh" a loose slot...The fact that it doesn't stick to the fret is a plus for ease of refretting in the future. I use CA though.But since I use SS frets,refretting is kind of a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 yeah, the point in using titebond is not to glue the wood to the fret. its a waterbased glue so will soak in and slightly swell the surrounding area before setting pretty hard. this helps the fret do what frets should - which is hold themselves in but i also use CA sometimes, usually on the ends. if you are doing a normal fret job (wont work for semi hemi) then leave a slight overhang on a bit longer. put the neck on its side when done and put a small drop of CA on the corner created by the overhanging fret and the fretboard. it will wick down the end just fine, even with bound fretboards. and if you get it right there wont be anything on the face of the board to clean up, just a little on the sides when you clip and file the fret down. You can do the same after the overhang is cut off but it has a much greater chance of running where you dont want it that old epoxy method does work well, but went massively out of fashion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted October 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 yeah, the point in using titebond is not to glue the wood to the fret. its a waterbased glue so will soak in and slightly swell the surrounding area before setting pretty hard. this helps the fret do what frets should - which is hold themselves in but i also use CA sometimes, usually on the ends. if you are doing a normal fret job (wont work for semi hemi) then leave a slight overhang on a bit longer. put the neck on its side when done and put a small drop of CA on the corner created by the overhanging fret and the fretboard. it will wick down the end just fine, even with bound fretboards. and if you get it right there wont be anything on the face of the board to clean up, just a little on the sides when you clip and file the fret down. You can do the same after the overhang is cut off but it has a much greater chance of running where you dont want it that old epoxy method does work well, but went massively out of fashion Thanks Wez, thats great info. If I had read it 2 hours ago I would have tried it. Heres an update. I finally managed to get the frets on the first one. Doing this the traditional way is SO much easier. I have a newfound appreciation for the semi-hemi fret treatments now. Before I started going all crazy with the files I wraped a shirt around the headstock to protect it from an errant file stokes or what have you. I'm sure I do my beveling like pretty much everyone else here does but heres a tip that might help someone. I put s thin strip of tape along the bottom edge of my beveling file so that the file edge wont dig into the side of my neck. Sure, most of thats getting removed when I shape the back profile but you still have the sides where the neck pocket is. Halfway there Cant remember where I saw this but once the bevel is done I go over the edges with a fine sanding sponge to knock off the edges. Standard procedure for most of you? I still need to dress the corners but heres the results And here is the 21st/22nd frets where I had to pull them. Twice for the 22nd. I'm not really happy about it but it is what it is. And now that the frets are in here's a quick mock up. Slowly but surely coming along. After I get the second one done fretted I think I'm going to set the bridge post holes, route for the pickups then think about the carve. I'm really looking forward to that part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm99 Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 And here is the 21st/22nd frets where I had to pull them. Twice for the 22nd. I'm not really happy about it but it is what it is. Whatever! This is totally fine, and the only reason it bothers you is that you've stared at it so much. Even if I commissioned you to build this guitar for me, I wouldn't be concerned about this. Nice work on those frets too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 No. At the very most it would fill any gaps (controvertible) and make the wood more "plasticy". I don't know of a better word to use other than that. Iäm a bit flu-ey today and am not articulating well. Titebond wouldn't be directly grippy as such but would likely provide a little bonus resistance to frets popping back out. In my opinion it is just easy to clean up with a damp cloth and isn't as invasive as CA or epoxy for example. Whether it truly helps is debatable but it certainly won't hurt. YMCA (Your Mileage Can Aberrate) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 And here is the 21st/22nd frets where I had to pull them. Twice for the 22nd. I'm not really happy about it but it is what it is. "SNIP" Whatever! This is totally fine, and the only reason it bothers you is that you've stared at it so much. Even if I commissioned you to build this guitar for me, I wouldn't be concerned about this. Nice work on those frets too! Exactly. We are often our own worst critics. 99.999% of the people staring right at the mistakes we make and cannot help but seeing with every glance, will never see them. Actually probably half that many will see yours, as you are very meticulous and detail oriented. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I think you guys are right. Its not as bad as I thought it was. Staring at something through a magnifying glass can make you a little critical. The second neck is now fretted. I have a few more questions as I get ready to carve the top soon. My plan is to bind the top with walnut so eventually I'll need to route a binding channel. It seems it would be easiest to do this while the top is flat and do it on a router table. Although this seems it would be easier in the beginning I'm worried about marring the channel somewhere down the line while working on the carve. The other way would be to make an overhead router jig and route it once the carve is done and insuring a clean binding channel. I'm also thinking about how to start my carve. I'm contemplating making some step templates for a router or possibly just free handing the steps with my router sled. I'm also wondering of I should go around the majority of the body with a cove bit before I do any of this. Maybe I've just been looking at too many tutorials but I'm a little hesitant on which method to use. The boards opinions are welcomed here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq180/doodoo4u2/The%20Guitar/BINDING-ROUTE.jpg My method is to route a ledge to carve to with a rabbit bit and then route the binding ledge into that. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 There's nothing stopping you from routing your binding ledges and binding the whole shebang before you even start the carve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted October 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 So is routing for the binding channel first pretty standard? Seems like most the Les Paul builds I see they're doing it last after the carve. On almost all the PRS builds I see there isnt one because they use faux binding. I'm just so worried about slipping with a tool an gouging it during the carve process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Slipping will likely be a problem whether you have routed, bound or not. There are jigs and methods for routing binding channels after a carve, but it kind of seems redundant when you have a flat surface to key from in the first instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted October 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Thanks for the reply. I still havent decided what route I'm going to take on the binding channel. I carved both the necks this weekend. It was my first time carving a volute. I didnt take too many pics but I rilled a time-lapse camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 I have a few more questions as I get ready to carve the top soon. My plan is to bind the top with walnut so eventually I'll need to route a binding channel. It seems it would be easiest to do this while the top is flat and do it on a router table. Although this seems it would be easier in the beginning I'm worried about marring the channel somewhere down the line while working on the carve. The other way would be to make an overhead router jig and route it once the carve is done and insuring a clean binding channel. If you want to route the binding channel after carving the top you may want to consider this method (click to zoom): You just need to make sure that the height of the doughnut is about the same as the depth of your top carve. I used this method with the Les Paul seen in the pictures and with the ES335 builds. It's fast, works well and the binding channel ends up very clean. If you're going to do a recurve around the edge as part of your carving, save that until after binding. For this method it is better to have a nice flat around the edges to ride on the doughnut (it would be the same for an overhead router jig, I imagine). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm99 Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Nice work on those necks. You seem to have just about every shaping tool ever invented too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Why don´t you just go with fake binding?? you have a very nice maple top... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted October 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Black dog, Very innovative jig you have there but If i route after the carve I'll probably build an overhead rig. The rig you have may work great but it would scare the hell out of me. dpm99, Thanks for the comment. I have a lot of shaping tools because in a former life I used to carve logs into tiki's. I've since moved on to guitars. Its much more rewarding. Eddiewarlock, The original design would have had faux binding but I decided to go with the walnut binding on the neck for the contrast. I think a maple colored binding at this point would clash aesthetically. I want to use walnut throughout to tie it all in. One problem I'm trying to solve is how the binding will come around the lower horn through the cutaway and meet the neck binding at the pocket. If you have ever noticed on some les pauls where the binding pind of skips over the joint where the maple top and mahogany meet and on others where the binding gets thicker at the end to hide that joint. Thats what I'm after. I dont want that joint showing. What I'm thinking so far is making some walnut binding that tapers from the lower cut away to the final thickness around the body. Maybe I'm making things harder than they should be but thats what I'm envisioning. I think once I figure it out and decide how I'm going to do it there will be a payoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted November 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 I finally got around to doing one of the top carves. Sadly I didnt take a whole lot of still pictures because I was really into what I was doing. But I did have my wife's camera on a tripod filming a time lapse of the process. I'll post it later when I get it edited together. I'll try and document the second carve a little better. I routed the edges of the body up to the tip of the horns with a 1.25" cove bit. I wanted to carve the insides of the horns by hand. I drew on some typographical lines to stair step the carve but I decided not to use templates. I just free handed the routes using the router sled I made. It went pretty smoothly and I was able to follow the lines drew within an 1/8". Once that was done I started in with a curved ibex finger plane. Being my first time using one of these it took me a few minutes to get comfortable with it and get a good adjustment on the blade. Certain parts of the body were much easier to plane than others. Towards the bottom of the carve the ibex plane cut through the maple like butter. And on other parts I had to fight it to get it to work well and not tear out wood. I was worried about how deep I routed this section in the beginning and started second guessing my decision to free hand route this but as I progressed it turned out not to be an issue. I taped off the first 1/2" around the neck pocket so I wouldn't go too far on the insides of the horns. I think the detail on the horns took the longest time and was the most challenging part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted November 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 And here it is finished and sanded up to 400 grit. This was a little more difficult then I was expecting but it was a lot of fun. I'll throw up the time lapse video soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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