My Second Build Attempt

[sdshirtman]

Here are a few pictures of the second one. It got a few treatments of med brown on the edges and then another treatment of some black on the edges while it was wet so I could blend it. While applying and blending the black it kind of muted and poisoned the med brown and red I had applied. I sanded back a little bit in the center and close to the edges and reapplied a thin wash of red and med brown.

Here it is in the sun and completely dry. I think its ready to seal now and move onto body filling.

This is backwards but this is the the state it was in before the last step. The only reason I'm posting is because I took it while it was still damp and more vibrant.

Twins and a big mess.

Edited March 5, 2012 by sdshirtman

[ScottR]

Those look great. Seriously, nothing about the blue bothers me even a little bit.

SR

[Maiden69]

It turned out very good... if you were not going for a deeper color, that first one looks right on for a blue stain. My first stain job was a "black-sand back-blue" that was something like your end result but much darker because of the deeper quilt figure.

And my last blue guitar was the opposite, I stained a darker blue, washed it a little bit, sanded just the tip of the wood and then shot a blue toner coat.

Both together... as you can see, I love blue guitars!!!

From both yours, I really like the thick flame on the blue one, it's a shame that the grain washed out on the waist. Kinda the same problem I had with the single cut on the waist at the bass side. The grain disappeared once I was done with the carving.

[sdshirtman]

Those look great. Seriously, nothing about the blue bothers me even a little bit.SR

Thanks for that. I need to hear it right now. I'm my own worst critic.

It turned out very good... if you were not going for a deeper color, that first one looks right on for a blue stain. My first stain job was a "black-sand back-blue" that was something like your end result but much darker because of the deeper quilt figure.And my last blue guitar was the opposite, I stained a darker blue, washed it a little bit, sanded just the tip of the wood and then shot a blue toner coat.Both together... as you can see, I love blue guitars!!! From both yours, I really like the thick flame on the blue one, it's a shame that the grain washed out on the waist. Kinda the same problem I had with the single cut on the waist at the bass side. The grain disappeared once I was done with the carving.

Those came out very nice. I see what you mean on the lighter blue one. My blue one is going to be what it is at this point which I don't think will be bad as far as the finish goes. Its just not what I had envisioned. I guess its just another small lesson. I purchased my maple top for the tobacco one from Northridge hardwoods. My friend who will be receiving the blue one also purchased his top wood from Northridge also but did so about 6 weeks or so after I bought mine. I still remember commenting about the lack of uniformity on his piece when he brought it over. In retrospect I should have told him to send it back and have them send out another one. He brought it over and said "Heres my wood". We talked about it a bit and he said "go with it" so I did. Live and learn.

Edited March 6, 2012 by sdshirtman

[Maiden69]

It looks good, I'm sure you're disappointed because it is not the shade that you wanted. One more trick that I learned from David Mika was to "wash" the color. He literally adds more color and takes away the excess with a clean wet rag until he achieves the color he wanted. I took that one step further using different types of dyes. I started with a alcohol soluble dye for my deep color, sanded back until just the right amount of figure was showing up, then I washed the main color(s) on top of that, those being water soluble tints. First time I tried I used water for both and the dye in the grain bled into the lighter color on top, but when I used the alcohol first, the dark dye didn't bled at all, allowing me to play with the lighter color until the tone that I wanted was achieved. I did that on my first bass. Cheery alcohol dye, then amber water dye rubbed on top.

As you can see the cherry turned to orange, but it didn't stained or bled into the clean areas.

[sdshirtman]

It looks good, I'm sure you're disappointed because it is not the shade that you wanted. One more trick that I learned from David Mika was to "wash" the color. He literally adds more color and takes away the excess with a clean wet rag until he achieves the color he wanted. I took that one step further using different types of dyes. I started with a alcohol soluble dye for my deep color, sanded back until just the right amount of figure was showing up, then I washed the main color(s) on top of that, those being water soluble tints. First time I tried I used water for both and the dye in the grain bled into the lighter color on top, but when I used the alcohol first, the dark dye didn't bled at all, allowing me to play with the lighter color until the tone that I wanted was achieved. I did that on my first bass. Cheery alcohol dye, then amber water dye rubbed on top.

As you can see the cherry turned to orange, but it didn't stained or bled into the clean areas.

That looks awesome. I like the forethought of using cherry before the amber to get the orange combo.

I did something similar but used water base vs alcohol. I did some experiments with the alcohol based dye and wasn't comfortable with the time it gave me to work and blend. I started off dying dark blue on the Aussie and med brown on the tobacco then sanded back. The tobacco was fine but my blue one wasnt dark enough in the grain so I sanded back and added black around the perimeter on the second round and sanded back again. My thought process being that I wanted blue grain in the center vs straight black. During the last few rounds I did sand back the centers to to enhance the burst and used lighter washes of turquoise and amber on them.

I started spraying some sealer to lock in the color today.

Being as these are only the second and third times I've attempted this I'm a little nervous. I really dont want to screw this up and end up sanding the tops off.

[Prostheta]

That "antique violin burst" or whatever you want to call it is PERFECT. My Ibanez Prestige is like that and I would love to give her a sister one day. That sounds weird, actually.

[Wretched]

Dude, they're going to look beautiful!

[Maiden69]

They both turned out great.

I get what you say about the window between alcohol and water. If I'm blending, I would only use water on all colors. The reason I use the alcohol dye is so they won't blend at all. You could achieve the same you did by cheating a little bit. Stain dark with the alcohol, then as you sand back, go over the entire face and remove just enough so that the figure starts to show, then carefully sand only on the figure, you got to be very careful, because if you get to overzealous you can create dips that will show on your finish product. I did that on that bass, I noticed that the cherry was being sanded out too easily, so once I had the grain the size I wanted, I switched to a small piece of rubber and just sanded on the top of the figure, doing all possible to avoid the grain. That is the reason, if you look closely between the other guitars and the bass, that the grain look like sharp skinny veins on top of the figure. The other guitars look more soft and blended than the bass.

[sdshirtman]

Well this was a nice surprise this morning.

I'm at a loss here. I'm guessing drop fill it with some lacquer? Suggestions anyone?

[RestorationAD]

I'm at a loss here. I'm guessing drop fill it with some lacquer? Suggestions anyone?

I suggest a lacquer burn in stick. Drop filling with lacquer would require something with high solids content to fill that gap.

How many more coats do you have left?

And what stage are you at? If you are still early (Sanding Sealerstage) I would think about fixing the gap proper. Sand it back fix the gap...yada yada.

If you ask me don't use CA. Everytime I have tried to use CA to fill a hole in lacquer it has gone bad (maybe lack of patience) as it always melts the lacquer around it.

[nowa90]

add some moisture to it, then put laquer on when it fills itself.

[crazygtr]

Maybe super glue? (CA)

[ScottR]

How big is that in real life? It doesn't look any wider or much deeper than those maple pores (somewhat longer though). Since maple pores are typically about the size of a gnat's posterior oriface, I'd probably go with the lacquer drop fill if it were me. I'm not familiar with the lacquer burn in stick that RAD suggests.....but I've found him to be a fairly knowlegeable fellow, so it would probably be worthwhile to look into that first. I do agree about staying away from CA at this stage. I think if it were me I'd consider myself well past the backing up and reglue/reclamp stage. If it is as small as I'm guessing, it should heal up fine with lacquer.

SR

[westhemann]

Tape both sides of the crack before you add whatever you add to keep it from spreading over your nice finish.If it were me,i would tape both sides and carefully wick in some Lacquer over the next few hours until it's filled,then sand while the tape is still on,and then remove the tape and clear the guitar.

I have never done that though...it is just a big old fat guess I pulled out of my ass

[Maiden69]

Same thing Wes said, either with lacquer or with CA. once you remove the tape, use a one side razor blade as a scraper and carefully reduce the hard edge left by the tape to the same level as the paint if you use CA, if it is lacquer, then just paint and level it later.

[sdshirtman]

I'm at a loss here. I'm guessing drop fill it with some lacquer? Suggestions anyone?

I suggest a lacquer burn in stick. Drop filling with lacquer would require something with high solids content to fill that gap.

How many more coats do you have left?

And what stage are you at? If you are still early (Sanding Sealerstage) I would think about fixing the gap proper. Sand it back fix the gap...yada yada.

If you ask me don't use CA. Everytime I have tried to use CA to fill a hole in lacquer it has gone bad (maybe lack of patience) as it always melts the lacquer around it.

Thanks. I'm about 5 coats into sealing it. Sanding off the finish thus far and staring over doesnt sound fun. I'll heed the ca glue advice and stay away from that. I looked at the burn in stick and found it on LMI's site but theres not much other information there. I also dont want to have to wait for it to come in if I dont have to. At my current disposal I have Deft lacquer sanding sealer and deft clear lacquer. Do you think the sanding sealer contains enough solids for drop filling? Also how does the lacquer burn in stick work?

add some moisture to it, then put laquer on when it fills itself.

Adding moisture to it at this point doesnt sound like a good idea to me. I can see it swelling and having something unpredictable happening. But thanks for the input.

Maybe super glue? (CA)

See RestorationAD's post above.

How big is that in real life? It doesn't look any wider or much deeper than those maple pores (somewhat longer though). Since maple pores are typically about the size of a gnat's posterior oriface, I'd probably go with the lacquer drop fill if it were me. I'm not familiar with the lacquer burn in stick that RAD suggests.....but I've found him to be a fairly knowlegeable fellow, so it would probably be worthwhile to look into that first. I do agree about staying away from CA at this stage. I think if it were me I'd consider myself well past the backing up and reglue/reclamp stage. If it is as small as I'm guessing, it should heal up fine with lacquer.

SR

Here is another pic. Note the bridge post insert for scale.

I'm way past reglue stage lol.

Tape both sides of the crack before you add whatever you add to keep it from spreading over your nice finish.If it were me,i would tape both sides and carefully wick in some Lacquer over the next few hours until it's filled,then sand while the tape is still on,and then remove the tape and clear the guitar.

I have never done that though...it is just a big old fat guess I pulled out of my ass

Thats a great tip Wes and thank you. Vulcan logic at work there.

Same thing Wes said, either with lacquer or with CA. once you remove the tape, use a one side razor blade as a scraper and carefully reduce the hard edge left by the tape to the same level as the paint if you use CA, if it is lacquer, then just paint and level it later.

And yes another good tip on the razor blade. I'm leaning towards trying to drop fill it at this point. I'm wanting to hear what RestorationAD has to say about the lacquer burn in stick vs lacquer sanding sealer.

And thanks for all the input so far. Much appreciated.

[westhemann]

I really love how the finish is coming out by the way.Are you using spray can Deft?

[RestorationAD]

+1 on Wes and Maidens advice.

Lacquer Burnin sticks are a lost art. I learned to use them as an apprentice luthier in the late 80s. They are solid sticks of lacquer. You use an alcohol burner and you melt the end of the stick. You then dab the stick on the indent and smooth over with a spatula. It cools in a few minutes. Depending on the size of the fill you use a small sanding block w/400+ or you use a single edge razor to scrape the fill back to finish level. Polish and buff. Done. No spraying no mess... and it is real lacquer. I get mine at the local Klingspore Woodworkers store. I think Woodcraft carries them.

http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Finishing/Repair,_touchup/i-0866.html

As for using the razor to level the fill... Yes that is how I would do it. See this --> http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Finish/RazorScrape/razorscrape1.html

I think the Sanding Sealer would have plenty of solids. Do tape up the finish though so you don't get it everywhere. Also let it dry really well before scraping as it will shrink a bit.

[ScottR]

Wasn't Drak always saying that sanding sealer was basically lacquer with soap or some sort of additive in it? I misremember exactly....something about it being softer than lacquer as well. IThat would scare me, but you know the lacquer will burn in fine.

SR

[RestorationAD]

Wasn't Drak always saying that sanding sealer was basically lacquer with soap or some sort of additive in it? I misremember exactly....something about it being softer than lacquer as well. IThat would scare me, but you know the lacquer will burn in fine.

SR

Sanding Sealer is usually a high solid content though and since he is going to fill the gap the and put more clear on top I would not worry so much. However if it was filling in the final coat I would not use Sanding Sealer but use the finish lacquer.

The problem with using finish lacquer is it is very thin (even before you thin it for a gun) so it will take a long time to fill.

[3DogNate]

Wasn't Drak always saying that sanding sealer was basically lacquer with soap or some sort of additive in it? I misremember exactly....something about it being softer than lacquer as well. IThat would scare me, but you know the lacquer will burn in fine.

SR

Sanding Sealer is usually a high solid content though and since he is going to fill the gap the and put more clear on top I would not worry so much. However if it was filling in the final coat I would not use Sanding Sealer but use the finish lacquer.

The problem with using finish lacquer is it is very thin (even before you thin it for a gun) so it will take a long time to fill.

I'd fill it with thick/medium CA or even epoxy... filling it with lacquer is just gonna shrink back over time (not that much of it either.)

[RestorationAD]

Sorry to me CA doesn't feel luthier like during the building process. Every time I have tried to shortcut with CA I have made a bigger mess than if I had taken the time and done a drop fill. I can understand for fixes and repairs after the guitar has gone off to the customer and returned for a repair... but just not a fan of CA during the initial finishing.

Drop fill explained.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Finish/Lacquer/DropFill/dropfill.html

[ScottR]

Wasn't Drak always saying that sanding sealer was basically lacquer with soap or some sort of additive in it? I misremember exactly....something about it being softer than lacquer as well. IThat would scare me, but you know the lacquer will burn in fine.

SR

Sanding Sealer is usually a high solid content though and since he is going to fill the gap the and put more clear on top I would not worry so much. However if it was filling in the final coat I would not use Sanding Sealer but use the finish lacquer.

The problem with using finish lacquer is it is very thin (even before you thin it for a gun) so it will take a long time to fill.

Those are true statements. My thought process was (if it were me) to paint a line in the groove a couple of times between each new coat sprayed. He's got a ways to go yet before his pores are filled enough to level after the shrinking is done. That would be like putting a triple coat in the groove each time. I figured it would catch up on the way to level.

SR

[sdshirtman]

I haven't had a chance to sit down and respond in a few days. It was a long work week and I ended up having just a little too much fun Friday night. (again) Friends were gathered and acoustics were strummed until the wee hours of the morning. You'd think at my age I'd learn to stay the hell away from red wine when on a bender. Especially after downing a copious amount of scotch at the pub beforehand. The result was a repeat of last Saturday holding down the sofa and watching B movies and a lost Saturday on this project.

Anyways here's an update.

I really love how the finish is coming out by the way.Are you using spray can Deft?

Yeah I'm using Deft from a can. Its cheap and works reasonably well and readily available. I'm hoping on my next build to be able to start spraying from a gun.

+1 on Wes and Maidens advice.

As for using the razor to level the fill... Yes that is how I would do it. See this --> http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Finish/RazorScrape/razorscrape1.html

I think the Sanding Sealer would have plenty of solids. Do tape up the finish though so you don't get it everywhere. Also let it dry really well before scraping as it will shrink a bit.

Thanks for the link. I used this razor blade method after drop filling several times. It took about4 sessions before it stopped soaking in. I think I have it licked but theres going to be an obvious spot where the problem is/was.

Wasn't Drak always saying that sanding sealer was basically lacquer with soap or some sort of additive in it? I misremember exactly....something about it being softer than lacquer as well. IThat would scare me, but you know the lacquer will burn in fine.

SR

Sanding Sealer is usually a high solid content though and since he is going to fill the gap the and put more clear on top I would not worry so much. However if it was filling in the final coat I would not use Sanding Sealer but use the finish lacquer.

The problem with using finish lacquer is it is very thin (even before you thin it for a gun) so it will take a long time to fill.

I was warned on the LP forum against using sanding sealer on this. I was told that I would get a much clearer finish in the end just using lacquer. But my patience only runs so deep. Sealing with pure lacquer would take a LONG time. That and I've used the sanding sealer on my first build and I had no problems with finish clarity at all so I went ahead and used the sealer.

Here is the smaller separation after filling and leveling with a razor. After it gets a few more coats I'm wondering if I cant go in with a super fine brush and camouflage it somewhat. I figure if I botch the camo I can just sand it off again. Stay tuned and we'll see.

And here is the longer one.

I sanded off the tops with some 400 grit. I could have used 220 and have in the past but I didn't want to risk any sand through at this stage and 400 cuts a lot slower. I took it down about this far.

This tip is out there to be found but here it is again. I soak my spray cans in hot water before I spray to help thin the lacquer out. It does seem to spray better like this.

And here we are up to date. I'm done with sealer on the tops. This is the first coat with lacquer consisting of 3 light passes in opposite directions. (drrrr)

From this distance the drop fills and the dark lines they left are unnoticeable.

Here is the smaller one. Its darkened up pretty badly. Personally my eye is drawn to it instantly but we have a more critical eye on out own builds don't we?

And the longer one. I tried to take this at an angle where the light fell across the fill. It looks level. I waited several days for the drop fills to shrink. I have my fingers crossed they wont come back too badly. You can also see that the grain is pretty much filled in at this point. I'm going to shoot another coat then un tape it and start in on the grain filling process on the back.

I've done some test samples for the mahogany but I still haven't decided definitively as to what color I'm going to do on the back. More staining tests may be in order.

Edited March 11, 2012 by sdshirtman