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Satin Clear Coat.


Kammo1
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Ok guys just would like a heads up on something that I would like to try but before I do need some of you who have done it to shed some light on the subject.

I would like to experiment on using a Satin clear coat but as you all know to get an off the gun suberb flat pimple free,bug free,orange peel free etc,etc ain't never gonna happen so was wondering when you shoot this stuff and you get an imperfection or sand out the finish with say 2000-2500-3000 grit paper will this still retain the clarity of when it has not been rubbed out. The finish I'm looking for is like the ESP Hannemans where the finish is absolutely flat clear and you can still see the wood or graphic underneath follow me ? In the past I have used clear that's been sanded back but after a while the finish on rubbing on your body starts to gloss up which I don't want. Also the finish that I want to use is Automotive 2K stuff or Polyester. Now I have been reading up on non scratch satin clearcoat but nothing is mentioned on the latter. Fire away guys and would love to hear your thoughts.

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From what I understand, all flats/satins will gloss up with body parts rubbing on it. However, the flatteners will help keep it from becoming an uber glossy gloss. I would never expect a flat lacquer or poly to stay flat forever, but that is just my expectation and I may be wrong.

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all flats/satins will gloss up with body parts rubbing on it.

No...You need to add a flattening agent(like fumed silica) to your clear...no big deal.But you need to experiment on scrap with different amounts of your flattening agent until you feel sure you can get what you want

It will never ever ever gloss up because the agent is all the way through it...A lot of people try to get a satin finish by scuffing the finish with steel wool to get fine scratches,but that is not the right way

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Thanks guys. Yeah I have scuffed up the finish with everything from steel wool to 3000 grit paper and it don't work as well as the finishes that you see on the ESP guitars.These are absolutely flat,smooth and the clarity is amazing, still would love to know how they do it.

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If I was to attempt flat black I'd spray exactly the same as I normally do except I'd add about 25%-50% matting agent into the clear.

I usually don't wet sand past 3000 but in this case I'd sand to 4000 and skip the machine buff and just wipe it over by hand

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  • 4 months later...

There are a lot of things you can do with cans,but for completely custom colors,combinations,etc you really need to mix it yourself.And that means a gun or the Preval units

There are places you can get things mixed for you and put into spray cans(I think Sherwinn Williams does this at some locations),but if you want complete control over your colors and levels of gloss you need to do your own mixing and have a good selection of pigments,dyes,etc..

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There are a lot of things you can do with cans,but for completely custom colors,combinations,etc you really need to mix it yourself.And that means a gun or the Preval units

There are places you can get things mixed for you and put into spray cans(I think Sherwinn Williams does this at some locations),but if you want complete control over your colors and levels of gloss you need to do your own mixing and have a good selection of pigments,dyes,etc..

Thank you for the info. It looks like I am going to be doing a lot of mixing practice.

Sorry to bug again, but would a satin clear coat still produce a matte finish on a metallic paint? I am looking at a gun metal, I know the exact colour I want, but it's an automotive paint - metallic.

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Wes, heads up... you are wrong :read

The matting agent makes it satin/matt on the surface, but you can buff a satin finish to a near 100% gloss. Ive done it. Your arm will do it over time on the forearm carve.

Maybe we'll do the V in satin so you can see! :rock

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Sorry,buddy...I am not wrong here.I have added fumed silica to gloss to get satin and it mixes all the way through it.You can buff it all you want and all you get is a nice slick surface,but it is still not 100% transparent...the amount of transparency depends on the amount of agent.I never post anything to finishing unless I am 100% sure with references to back me up...

From the finishing bible

This is obviously an illustration of how the flatting agents work.As you can see they are all the way through,no chance of buffing that out,it's impossible

599529_433065133400813_1226807286_n.jpg

Doing it by making fine scratches on the surface...obviously if you use this method it will gloss up over time by contact with your skin

599529_433065140067479_1704140204_n.jpg

A couple of paragraphs on such things

599529_433065136734146_984951955_n.jpg

599529_433065126734147_658930269_n.jpg

I mean,of course you can add just a touch of flatting agent and not affect the clarity much,or you can put in a ton and obscure it completely.If you use a flatting agent and you buff the entire thing just as you would a gloss finish,it will be scratch free,but still flat

I mean,I am in no way implying that I have anywhere near the skill you have,or even the knowledge base you have,but I looked all this up before I posted originally to make sure my own experiences matched and that I wasn't missing something

You are still the man,I just don't want some guy to be rubbing his heart out trying to get a premixed satin finish to gloss up,or to be disappointed when a scratchy finish glosses up over time :peace:)

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Still wrong Wes :P

Flattening agent certainly leaves a finish with less gloss (semi-gloss), very little gloss (satin), or zero gloss (matt). Adding more definately starts limiting clarity (eg: it starts getting milky). BUT, you only need the final coat to be satin/matt, so its not an issue. If you did every coat with flattening agent (you wouldn't though), it would not have the clarity that the same clear does, without the flattening agent added.

BUT, despite the flattening agent being even through out the coat, it can definately be buffed to near 100% gloss. NOTE, Ive said gloss, not clarity. If you read the text you quoted, you'll see it says that also :)

EG: last pic "you can make satin and flat (matt) finishes appear SHINY (gloss) when viewed in reflective light"

Gloss is the level of shine. A black paint job is still gloss, even when you can't see through it (clarity). Adding flattening base over the black (mixed in clear) dulls the black to a very very very dark grey (basically black) with a non GLOSS reflection (eg: satin or flat/matt).

Look at any modern Fender neck. Starts off satin, ends up gloss from wear. The flattening agent is still there, it's just been buffed by usage (or a buffer!).

For all intents and purposes, disregard the clarity aspect. It really isnt an issue.

Flattening agent is somewhat universal (I havent found a product it DOESNT work with), eg: nitro, two pack, acrylic, enamel... all use the same stuff. Or at least, the stuff I use is universal...

It is very inconsistant though. Humidty, faster hardners or faster thinners/reducers, temperature, level of thinners/reducer, and coat thickness (somewhat) all effect the ratio you need to add. There is no hard and fast rule, you simply need to spray a sample on another piece of work 30-60 minutes prior to spraying your 'real' coats.

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Still wrong Wes :P

Flattening agent certainly leaves a finish with less gloss (semi-gloss), very little gloss (satin), or zero gloss (matt). Adding more definately starts limiting clarity (eg: it starts getting milky). BUT, you only need the final coat to be satin/matt, so its not an issue. If you did every coat with flattening agent (you wouldn't though), it would not have the clarity that the same clear does, without the flattening agent added.

BUT, despite the flattening agent being even through out the coat, it can definately be buffed to near 100% gloss. NOTE, Ive said gloss, not clarity. If you read the text you quoted, you'll see it says that also :)

EG: last pic "you can make satin and flat (matt) finishes appear SHINY (gloss) when viewed in reflective light"

Gloss is the level of shine. A black paint job is still gloss, even when you can't see through it (clarity). Adding flattening base over the black (mixed in clear) dulls the black to a very very very dark grey (basically black) with a non GLOSS reflection (eg: satin or flat/matt).

Look at any modern Fender neck. Starts off satin, ends up gloss from wear. The flattening agent is still there, it's just been buffed by usage (or a buffer!).

For all intents and purposes, disregard the clarity aspect. It really isnt an issue.

Flattening agent is somewhat universal (I havent found a product it DOESNT work with), eg: nitro, two pack, acrylic, enamel... all use the same stuff. Or at least, the stuff I use is universal...

It is very inconsistant though. Humidty, faster hardners or faster thinners/reducers, temperature, level of thinners/reducer, and coat thickness (somewhat) all effect the ratio you need to add. There is no hard and fast rule, you simply need to spray a sample on another piece of work 30-60 minutes prior to spraying your 'real' coats.

Errrg... um, I have just ordered a (nitro) dark grey colour from a paint supplier, with flattening agent in it, and (nitro) satin clear coat.

Am I reading right that I shouldn't put too many layers of the satin clear coat on?

Combined with the flat paint and the satin clear coat, will it look "cloudy"?

Edited by mungokitty
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YOU ONLY NEED FLATTENING AGENT IN THE FINAL COAT.

I wouldnt EVER put it in the colour coat. It's not a problem if you do, but it's just wasting it really. If it is premixed, don't worry, it will be fine. Colour will probably not be effected, as its a solid colour anyway. If it was a candy style tinted clear, then it would effect the clarity if premixed as satin.

The more clear coats with the flattening agent there are (premixed or otherwise), the less clarity you will see THROUGH the finish.

Nitro clear has an amber tint to it, when you view it in the paint can. Satin premixed (flattening agent) nitro is still amber, but you cant see through it... in fact your lucky to see an inch into the liquid...

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I dissagree. The agent should be in all the clear. (talking 2k here)

I do agree not to put anything into the basecoat (color). The basecoats are already flat. It's the clear that makes them gloss.

If it's only in the top layer then chances are when it's cut and buffed you'll get a non conformity and possible sand through in spots back to the full gloss which means that over time you will get what perry is talking about.

In my experiences (I've never used it on guitars, only used it when spraying cars) the matting agent will still leave an amount of gloss however if you see that piece next to a piece without the agent there is a very obvious difference. Also, I've noticed that you tend to need more agent than your intellect suggests is normal, as instinct would have us just put a pinch in, it's more like pour it in. Maybe 1/3 for satin and more for matt.

I'll dig out a pic later when I'm at my computer and off my iPhone.

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Combined with the flat paint and the satin clear coat, will it look "cloudy"?

Yes. That's how it works. It creates a cloud so the light doesn't reflect as much from the gloss so our eyes see the image as a satin appearance rather than full gloss, even though the gloss is still there.

You have to think of clear and trans candy paint colors as a 3D entity - imagine the light shining into layers of glass and how the light will bounce around in these layers before it reflects back out from whatever the last layer is until our eyes perceive whatever the backwards reflection is. That's why it can be tricky to photograph as the camera sees differently to our eyes.

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20012010317small.jpg

This door is from a Chevy I was painting a few years ago.

In this case I sprayed the whole door red, blended the black in and then sprayed clear (gloss) over the whole door, I then mixed the matting agent into the clear and sprayed the black part where it needed the end to appear satin.

You can clearly see where the satin and gloss meet, it is the exact same clear - just has the agent.

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Thanks so much!

I called up the paint supplier and am having the colour mixed without the matting agent in it. That should save a bit of coin too.

I'm going to start a thread of my project in the other ones, so will show the practice runs as well. :) thanks again

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