bob123 Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 Silly though crossed my mind.... This would allow you to use a guitar neck WITHOUT a fretboard. Bear with me here... Picture should explain my thought process. My only concern would be having the truss rod applying pressure on the glue joint line, but thats not really a huge concern as multi peice necks have pressure along the glue joints themselves. Obviously using mahogany wouldn't work very well, but maple, wenge, other hard woods of that nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 Why?It seems to resolve no issues while creating a more complicated process. Besides,neck laminations are always in odd numbers(1,3,5,etc) for a reason...to keep the truss rod off of a glueline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob123 Posted April 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 Why?It seems to resolve no issues while creating a more complicated process. Besides,neck laminations are always in odd numbers(1,3,5,etc) for a reason...to keep the truss rod off of a glueline. For "Why?", simply to have a truly "one peice neck" No fretboard, very clean look imo, particularly thinking about flamed maple necks, or other interesting figures. As far as the neck laminations being in odd numbers, thats not acccurate, sorry. Many G & L necks are two peice necks, with the piece simply split down the middle and flipped in half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YetzerHarah Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 If you really want to do it, I'd make a plank w/ frets, string it up, & see how it goes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob123 Posted April 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 If you really want to do it, I'd make a plank w/ frets, string it up, & see how it goes I may try it out. Wes -> another thing to consider, look at fenders 1 peice necks with the skunk stripe! thats certainly less stable then my idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 For "Why?", simply to have a truly "one peice neck" No fretboard, very clean look imo, particularly thinking about flamed maple necks, or other interesting figures. It's still not one piece...it's two. Like every new builder,you are trying to reinvent the wheel without learning why a wheel is round to begin with We have all been there,and I would guess 90% of us have had that same idea and discarded it as a waste of time for zero benefit..I know it was one of the first things I thought of...right after I spent weeks trying to invent a better way to build and get rid of truss rods. Wes -> another thing to consider, look at fenders 1 peice necks with the skunk stripe! thats certainly less stable then my idea Nope..skunk stripe is no less stable and it is a better idea besides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob123 Posted April 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 i would be more inclined to agree, however, no matter how "exact" or "precise" a skunk stripe is, its still not a perfect fit, certainly not as much as 1 piece of wood sawed in half. Getting rid of the truss rod all together would be ideal, and based on vigier's techniques with carbon, totally feasible, but still requires laminates and fretboards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 Truss rods are a necessary evil without them you would have to depend on string tention. I had a fender that the neck was dead straight with all the preasure off the trusrid and 10 strings on it i had to bump ip to 12s to get proper relief in the neck and i dont like 12s ended up trading off the guitar. My point is truss rods give you flexibility they allow a guitar to be set up the way you want it not the way the guitar wants. The only problem i can think of with your idea is your gonna have to install the rod very early in the process then carve out a neck around that rod its not going to be a forgiving process Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 i would be more inclined to agree, however, no matter how "exact" or "precise" a skunk stripe is, its still not a perfect fit, certainly not as much as 1 piece of wood sawed in half. Getting rid of the truss rod all together would be ideal, and based on vigier's techniques with carbon, totally feasible, but still requires laminates and fretboards. Newb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob123 Posted April 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 i would be more inclined to agree, however, no matter how "exact" or "precise" a skunk stripe is, its still not a perfect fit, certainly not as much as 1 piece of wood sawed in half. Getting rid of the truss rod all together would be ideal, and based on vigier's techniques with carbon, totally feasible, but still requires laminates and fretboards. Newb AND PROUD OF IT! haha, I ask questions to get answers. I don't think this process is revolutioinary nor a "good" idea, I just figured it would be something to try out some day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YetzerHarah Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 I'm not saying don't try it out if you want to, but you do understand the inherent problem with that design: The strength of a glue joint is directly proportional to it's surface area. Here, I drew you some cheesy free-body-diagrams to illustrate the problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelvock Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Bob, how I've missed you and your crazy ideas! We can add this one to spraying WD40 on unfinished wood and the fiberglass neck mould, template, sanding block thingy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob123 Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Yetzer, I appreciate your drawing. Im not understand the skunk stripe one however. Truss rods bend both ways, so wouldn't the force being exerted be pressed on JUST the skunk stripe if you're trying to get rid of string tension induced front bow? By that merit, then skunk stripe necks should offer the most resiliance to changes. You also didn't draw out my "fix" for this idea (rotating the neck so the joint is horizontal), basically creating a perfectly matched, albeit large "fretboard" Bob, how I've missed you and your crazy ideas! We can add this one to spraying WD40 on unfinished wood and the fiberglass neck mould, template, sanding block thingy! Sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelvock Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Sorry, I was only messing around. In all seriousness when are we gonna get an update on your PGM build? I was enjoying following that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YetzerHarah Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 I can't say that no one's ever done a two way truss rod in a skunk stripe, but I can tell you that traditionally they are one way just a metal bar threaded on end w/ an anchor on the other (only exerting force towards the fretboard), & I think it'd be a bad idea to do a 2 way rod in that design (both because the pressure on the skunk stripe & because 2 way rods usually sit in strait, rather than curved slots) I missed where you talked about rotating it sideways, I see no reason why it wouldn't work, but I don't really see a benefit either. Honestly, like I said earlier, I think the best thing to do is the make a fretted plank long enough to put a bridge on one end & tuners on the other (ideally out of something hard and cheap like unfigured hard maple), string it up & see (if it doesn't implode &) how much you like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob123 Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Sorry, I was only messing around. In all seriousness when are we gonna get an update on your PGM build? I was enjoying following that. haha no worries, I know a lot of my "ideas" are pretty dumb, simply throwing them into the pond to see what happens. Im sure people have done everything I think about, so I simply ask to see reactions. yetzer, I may give it a try. I honestly want to give it a whirl with truss bars installed (graphite and steel) so you dont even HAVE a truss rod. That would make my idea more "usable" so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) Not an original idea, do a little research on Hagstrom guitars. they came up with the "H" or "I" beam (depends on what angle you are looking at it) truss rod sandwiched between two neck halves and then capped with a fb. This allowed for using less wood as the truss rod "I" shape is more stable in comparison to the traditional round truss rod...ie. no twisting. Thats why they are called the "fastest necks ever made". http://www.hagstrom.org.uk/expander_stretcher.htm Edited April 24, 2013 by Southpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob123 Posted April 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Well there we go. At least I feel more sane now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Okay, I'll do my usual thing and ignore everything that has been said (actually, I haven't got time to review anything but the opening post).... A truss rod is a completely necessary and intrinsically important part of a neck! Without one you are at the mercy of the wood resisting string tension (it won't) and staying in one very specific shape to maintain optimum playability (it won't). Reinforcing wood will help keep it in one shape but this of itself is not useful if that shape is incorrect in the first place or if forces such as string tension and natural wood movement conspire to move around....and they will.... A neck without a truss rod is not going to be controllable. It will not do what you need it to do. Quit yer yapping and get a truss rod in there and stop thinking about the issue as it is truly a waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob123 Posted April 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) Okay, I'll do my usual thing and ignore everything that has been said (actually, I haven't got time to review anything but the opening post).... A truss rod is a completely necessary and intrinsically important part of a neck! Without one you are at the mercy of the wood resisting string tension (it won't) and staying in one very specific shape to maintain optimum playability (it won't). Reinforcing wood will help keep it in one shape but this of itself is not useful if that shape is incorrect in the first place or if forces such as string tension and natural wood movement conspire to move around....and they will.... A neck without a truss rod is not going to be controllable. It will not do what you need it to do. Quit yer yapping and get a truss rod in there and stop thinking about the issue as it is truly a waste of time. I HIGHLY respect your advice and wisdom, and much more your tact in your responses. I know I can be a little "trying" at times, but I do have reasons behind my thoughts....\ Stuff like this makes me question "normal" build methods and techinques... I follow the normal path, but at the same time, if theres a better way to do it, why not? http://www.vigierguitars.com/html/Description_US/Guitars/neck_us.html Edited April 25, 2013 by bob123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Questions... Answer all you want,we'll make more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted April 26, 2013 Report Share Posted April 26, 2013 Tact usually clouds the specificity of information. If you want to try something new, cool. The only good thing I have seen recently is Cycfi's carbon fibre rod. Everything else is like trying to reinvent the wheel or make fire obsolete. A solution is a solution. You can improve the working but the answer is still the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DropTop Posted April 26, 2013 Report Share Posted April 26, 2013 Kinda late to the party i know.I think Teuffel installs the truss rod this way on his birdfish models.As for the glue line vs truss rod could somenone explain from what point of view it is not recommended.Is it beacause the glue line is harder/rgid thus the neck is less 'adjustable'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Our Souls inc. Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/topic/44835-trussless-bass-neck/ http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/topic/46670-5-string-bass-swamp-ash-and-ebony/ http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/topic/44857-if-you-beat-a-corvus-with-an-ugly-stick/ Bob, the trussless idea has merit, as I've done it before with success. The 5 string bass neck I made is still in use. As for the glue-line on top of the truss-rod, a bookmatched fretboard has the same issue, and it's really a non-issue. Do what you like, don't concern yourself with doubters and if you fall on your face, get back up. The evolution of the instrument has always been done by people thinking outside the box. Keep at it, you never know what you'll come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAvenger Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 A bit late, but I'd say a guitar without a truss rod would be entirely possible. Similar to your idea, you could route a deep channel on both sides and insert a thick strip of something like carbon fiber. A bit expensive, but it should work. There are also ways to stabilize the carbon fiber in the wood, if you were to try it then it's something to consider. You could also devise interesting ways of connecting the neck to the body with this method. Or you could cheat and use nylon strings =p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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