2 More Exp Customs

[demonx]

Not trying to argue or anything, but I've never heard of anyone EVER sanding basecoat in between layers (I'm talking auto 2k, which I'm sure is what you said you're using). Old School acrylic guys etc will, but wer're not talking acrylics here and its a complete different paint process.

If the basecoat looks a little bit orange peely, not excessive, but only very slightly, which sometimes it can under very close inspection, the thinners in the first clear coat layer should smooth this out anyway. If its excessively orange peeled, then either your technique or gun setup needs a look at. Check your air pressure at the gun (not at the compressor) is correct, check how close to the guitar the gun is, check the gun settings are right, check you're not overlapping your layers too much or too soon between coats, check that you're moving fast enough and the gun isnt being held on the same place too long.

For a solid color like the black you're doing I usually only ever spray two full coats of base and thats after one light tack coat. The time frame for that would be spray tack coat, wait a couple minutes, full coat, wait ten or fifteen minutes, second full coat, wait an hour and then first clear coat, wait ten to fifteen minutes, second clear coat, wait twenty to thirty minutes and then last clear coat. All in one session, no sanding between coats. Let it hang for a week before you wet sand and polish the clear. That is how I spray 2k auto base and clear on a guitar.

I hope that helps you out and saves you a lot of effort in uneeded sanding!

[demonx]

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/topic/46118-searls-black-v6/page-5?hl=searls

That link is to a black guitar I sprayed about 18 months ago. You can see the steps, pic of tack coat, then base coats and clear coats all in one day, then on the next page is the finished/buffed paint. Hope that helps you see what I'm trying to explain

[killemall8]

Its not 2k, Its 1 part urethane basecoat. Just thinned with urethane reducer.

I mean, it doesnt HAVE To be. But in my experiences it comes out much better than if i dont.

I understand what you are trying to explain. your method obviously works well for you. But i have had great success with my methods as well, until now.

[demonx]

I wish I could take credit for it as my method, but it's not - Its the standard process that pretty much every show car 2k paint job is sprayed, just the flash times are changed for a spray booth environment.

Good luck and hope you get it solved.

[Prostheta]

Definitely. I really love this shape Luis and am really looking forward to seeing it under paint. Sounds weird to say that since you usually do great wood combos and accenting however designs like this are often flattered by a great paintjob. Take your time. We won't be tapping our feet...much! :-D

[killemall8]

Thanks guys. It will get there eventually.

In the mean time, enjoy black bursty.

[Prostheta]

Oh crap, that is sexytime.

[killemall8]

[ScottR]

That's what I'm talkin' about! Sweet.

SR

[verhoevenc]

I generally hate Zebrawood... but this... this I like!

Chris

[killemall8]

Thank you sirs!

I am not sure how i like the EM7000 lacquer. It does dry much better than regular lacquer and hte water clean up is great.

But it really doesnt spray as nicely out of the gun as poly or auto finishes. we'll see if it actually dries hard.

[killemall8]

so,

It has been 18 days since i sprayed this guitar. And yet, still isnt hard. Just another reason i hate lacquer. I had high hopes for it, but nope, just the same as all lacquers. It has been non stop in the 90s here, and it has been hanging in the garage with airflow.

And i am willing to be that as soon as i wet sand and buff it, it will shrink back.

[guitar2005]

I tried the EM7000 and hated it. It doesn't flow out properly, clogs up the gun and yes, goes on thick but it has a strong blue tint in it. Its not useable for me.

EM6000 is much better IMO. Lay it down @ 2-3 mil, wait 3 hours between coats in a dry environment and make sure you have the right pressure (under 18psi at the gun) and a 1.3mm tip.

You also have to ensure the EM6000 is fresh or it will give you trouble.

Still, with EM6000, the colour will have a blueish haze as you pile on the coats. 12 coats max is what I do. At 12 coats, you'll still have a shift in color. Its most noticeable on dark colors. I had high hopes for this finish but I think that I'll be going back to Nitro or even give french polish a try for the darker colors.

[killemall8]

I tried the EM7000 and hated it. It doesn't flow out properly, clogs up the gun and yes, goes on thick but it has a strong blue tint in it. Its not useable for me.

EM6000 is much better IMO. Lay it down @ 2-3 mil, wait 3 hours between coats in a dry environment and make sure you have the right pressure (under 18psi at the gun) and a 1.3mm tip.

You also have to ensure the EM6000 is fresh or it will give you trouble.

Still, with EM6000, the colour will have a blueish haze as you pile on the coats. 12 coats max is what I do. At 12 coats, you'll still have a shift in color. Its most noticeable on dark colors. I had high hopes for this finish but I think that I'll be going back to Nitro or even give french polish a try for the darker colors.

I have found that every water based finish has a bluish tint. With the 7000, it goes away when it dries though.

18psi? Thats it? That is pretty low. It seems like it wouldnt even spray at that low of PSI.

[RestorationAD]

I tried the EM7000 and hated it. It doesn't flow out properly, clogs up the gun and yes, goes on thick but it has a strong blue tint in it. Its not useable for me.

EM6000 is much better IMO. Lay it down @ 2-3 mil, wait 3 hours between coats in a dry environment and make sure you have the right pressure (under 18psi at the gun) and a 1.3mm tip.

You also have to ensure the EM6000 is fresh or it will give you trouble.

Still, with EM6000, the colour will have a blueish haze as you pile on the coats. 12 coats max is what I do. At 12 coats, you'll still have a shift in color. Its most noticeable on dark colors. I had high hopes for this finish but I think that I'll be going back to Nitro or even give french polish a try for the darker colors.

+1000 same experience. Had some of it freeze during delivery and ruin buck and half worth of EM6000.

And i am willing to be that as soon as i wet sand and buff it, it will shrink back.

Tell me about it. I run in to this all the time no matter what lacquer I use.

[ScottR]

Yeah, you've got to take the time and effort to do a quality job of pore filling for that to become a non issue.

SR

[RestorationAD]

Yeah, you've got to take the time and effort to do a quality job of pore filling for that to become a non issue.

SR

In my experience Lacquer and shrinking go hand and hand and there is very little you can do to avoid it. Pore filling and sealing help but a Lacquer sanding sealer will shrink right along with the buff coat.

Ever wonder how you all the sudden find 320 grit scratch marks under the clear when 3 days ago it was perfect... yeah it sucks.

[ScottR]

On my last one I pore filled with Zpoxy and because of the gashes in the upper horn I had a thin coat of Zpoxy over the entire thing....more like a finish than a straight up pore fill or seal coat. I sanded that up to 800 before spraying with lacquer.....bottom line is I didn't leave anything for it to shrink back into, because yes it still shrinks. I'm not a fan of lacquer sanding sealer, it just seems like soft lacquer to me.

So, yeah you are absolutely correct, shrinkage will always be a part of the equation. Surface preparation is critical to keeping the effects of shrikage manageable. For instance, once the lacquer had finished curing and shrinking, leveling and buffing out the shrinkage into the 320 grit scratch marks wasn't terribly difficult.

SR

[killemall8]

Even with conversion varnishes and 2 part auto clears i still get shrink back.

Scott,

This is all alder and maple, so no pores to fill. Even still, i have had finishes turn orange peely(ish) after it was sanded perfectly smooth and buffed.

I am starting to think that NM just isnt the right climate for smooth gloss finishes. with 100* temperatures and 0 humidity, it just never seems to stop drying or shrinking.

[ScottR]

That sounds like perfect climate .....but that don't make it so. You may be on to something. I would normally just shoot more coats, get sick and tired of waiting till it all cured and shrank......but, I'd be comfortable there was plenty still left after leveling and buffing.

My first one got coated with rattle can acrylic clear (auto store stuff) and it seemed like it shrank for a year. I leveled it again after that it looked great.

Course you don't plan to still have yours after a year......

SR

[Prostheta]

Strange. Given airflow you are probably in the ideal situation for your paint to dry. Auto urethanes should be good to go within three days or ideally three weeks and given that your ambient temps and humidity are good. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't your temps pretty much perfect for curing lacquer?

Shrinkback just goes with the territory. When the solvents gas off something has to replace it. Unless you cure in a vacuum I guess ;-)

[Prostheta]

That sounds like perfect climate .....but that don't make it so. You may be on to something. I would normally just shoot more coats, get sick and tired of waiting till it all cured and shrank......but, I'd be comfortable there was plenty still left after leveling and buffing.

My first one got coated with rattle can acrylic clear (auto store stuff) and it seemed like it shrank for a year. I leveled it again after that it looked great.

Course you don't plan to still have yours after a year......

SR

Rattlecans are just a pain because of the amount of solvent they are drowned in. No idea what kind of solids content you get in those things. I'm really trying my hardest to find nitro in a can here so I don't need to resort to premix rattlecans of the stuff. No doubt there will be potential for disaster knowing me.

[guitar2005]

I have found that every water based finish has a bluish tint. With the 7000, it goes away when it dries though.

18psi? Thats it? That is pretty low. It seems like it wouldnt even spray at that low of PSI.

The blue tint doesn't go away. I have a guitar that I sprayed 1 year ago and the tint is still present. I'm having to redo two guitars because of this.

Apparently KTM-SV doesn't have the blue tint. IDK.

[killemall8]

Scott and Pros,

I have always thought i was in the absolute ideal climate for spraying guitars. But i really have no idea why finishes continue to shrink forever.

I left one painted guitar out to dry for about a month, with 2k clear on it. I leveled it, buffed it, and it sat for another month.

It was absolutely perfect when i first buffed it. Even after that next month, it started to look not so mirror perfect anymore.

I dont know, i really dont get it.

guitar2005,

The blueness went away on mine within a few minutes. On the black part of the burst, when it first was sprayed, looked completely opaque blue. But after it dried, it looks jet black.

I have had some waterbased polys stay really blue. And if you add a tint to them, they look florescent.

[RestorationAD]

Apparently KTM-SV doesn't have the blue tint. IDK.

KTM-SV has an amber tint that is why it doesn't blue.

KTM-9 is a water-white.

Here is the comparison chart in PDF. COMPARISON-9_vs_SV

Even Mike Doolin leaves the things to cure for a few weeks... here is his tutorial on KTM-9 in PDF Doolin_instructions

I might give KTM-9 a go as I have tried everything else... then again I should know better.