killemall8 Posted October 29, 2013 Report Posted October 29, 2013 We all know about the insanely hard polyester finishes that big companies use as clear coat and sealer. I have never been able to find any for sale. Where the heck do they get that stuff? It is rock hard. That is exactly what i want in a finish. Out of every finish i have ever used, non get very hard. Even auto finishes. I really want to find some of the polyester stuff they use on factory guitars. Quote
Prostheta Posted October 29, 2013 Report Posted October 29, 2013 I've never tried however the impression I get is how industrial that stuff is. Like Fullerplast. I think that it is not a case of how difficult it is to acquire, but how to get it in small quantities and even then use it without harming your health. Quote
HuntinDoug Posted October 29, 2013 Report Posted October 29, 2013 This is the good stuff. I know several Pro builders that use it: http://www.simteccoatings.com/Productlist.ivnu Quote
bob123 Posted October 29, 2013 Report Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) I know surf shops carry this stuff some times. May be worth looking around in that area. I've tried polyester resin once, and basically it kept coming out like crap. I used weight measurments, used a syringe, mixed it until my arms bled, double cupped it, sprayed, brushed... no matter what I did, it never cured. Prepare for some headache until you figure it out I guess. I've had much more luck with other 2k finishes. Edited October 29, 2013 by bob123 Quote
Prostheta Posted October 29, 2013 Report Posted October 29, 2013 Looks like you have to get a proper move on with that stuff. No messing. Sounds very similar to Fullerplast to be honest! Sounds like a proper Tyvek suit and respirator job. Quote
killemall8 Posted October 29, 2013 Author Report Posted October 29, 2013 Thanks for the replies. Doug, i found that site, but how do you order it? There is no option for that and no dealers listed. Bob, I have used 2k finishes, and some just dont cure on wood or on wood sealer. Plus they are quite expensive, usually around 55 bucks a quart. I kinda figured they would be intensely dangerous. Quote
bob123 Posted October 29, 2013 Report Posted October 29, 2013 Thanks for the replies. Doug, i found that site, but how do you order it? There is no option for that and no dealers listed. Bob, I have used 2k finishes, and some just dont cure on wood or on wood sealer. Plus they are quite expensive, usually around 55 bucks a quart. I kinda figured they would be intensely dangerous. Right now, my finish of choice is catalyzed urethane, but yes its foul stuff. I spray outside in a makeshift tent, and its pretty evil still. I've never had an issue with sealers, but I only use shellac, so that may be why perhaps. Pricey indeed, with the catalyst, my stuff costs almost 100$ for a quart. That said on a guitar, a quart goes a LONG way haha. Worth the money imo. Quote
killemall8 Posted October 29, 2013 Author Report Posted October 29, 2013 Thanks for the replies. Doug, i found that site, but how do you order it? There is no option for that and no dealers listed. Bob, I have used 2k finishes, and some just dont cure on wood or on wood sealer. Plus they are quite expensive, usually around 55 bucks a quart. I kinda figured they would be intensely dangerous. Right now, my finish of choice is catalyzed urethane, but yes its foul stuff. I spray outside in a makeshift tent, and its pretty evil still. I've never had an issue with sealers, but I only use shellac, so that may be why perhaps. Pricey indeed, with the catalyst, my stuff costs almost 100$ for a quart. That said on a guitar, a quart goes a LONG way haha. Worth the money imo. Never seen any that pricey. Even the catalyzed conversion varnish i used to do was like 55 bucks a gallon with a 20$ catalyst you had to buy on top of it. A quart a long way on a guitar? Have you ever sprayed a full guitar, body and neck? At 3-4 medium coats, you could MAYBE get 2 guitars out of it. Quote
bob123 Posted October 29, 2013 Report Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) 55 bucks a gallon may be why you were having problems. I had an auto body guy talk to me about clears, and he recommended this as the cheapest product to get. He said anything lower and you're bound to run into problems. The catalyst was also more expensive then the paint, are you sure you're getting the right stuff??? edit : when I said 100 bucks, I meant the paint AND the catalyst for the quart, sorry if there is some confusion there. I've painted 6 bodies and 3 necks with this amount of paint. Still have 2/3rds of a can left... edit: I've also never needed more then a mist coat and then a medium build coat on top. 3-4 coats isn't required with this stuff for enough wiggle room to wetsand and polish. Edited October 29, 2013 by bob123 Quote
westhemann Posted October 29, 2013 Report Posted October 29, 2013 Oh,we are judging finish quality on price now? Kea,I don't know if polyester is the answer for you.Maybe the climate where you are plays havoc with what you are using.As you know,I have had good luck with the same conversion varnish you use,though it can be tricky.Your work is good though,so maybe these headaches are just par for the course unless you want to go to wiping on finishes or the like. Quote
bob123 Posted October 30, 2013 Report Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Oh,we are judging finish quality on price now? Kea,I don't know if polyester is the answer for you.Maybe the climate where you are plays havoc with what you are using.As you know,I have had good luck with the same conversion varnish you use,though it can be tricky.Your work is good though,so maybe these headaches are just par for the course unless you want to go to wiping on finishes or the like. If you want to compare your knowledge to a guy that's been painting cars longer then you've been alive, then we can have this conversation if you want. Yes, price matters. If you dont think so, feel free to google search "cheap clear coats" and see the results. If its all the same, why not use the 5$ can from walmart wes? edit: PPG is a highly regarded paint. If you're skimping on the last stage, expecting great results, you're probably bound for failure. This isn't me being a brat, its pretty much a universal constant. I did my research and took the sage advice from an old master mechanic who's painted more entire cars then you or I will ever paint guitar wise. These aren't my words, they are his. I don't normally hold gospel to one persons critique so I did my research. Turns out when you use cheap paints, they have their own sets of problems. Either they don't dry properly (which is what KEA is having issues with turns out), they yellow fast, or they simply dont hold up for very long. I would figure someone with your experience would be able to understand this. Also, if everything is the same, why use zpoxy or west systems? Why not get the tube of quick set epoxy from walmart? Should be the same thing right? Edited October 30, 2013 by bob123 Quote
killemall8 Posted October 30, 2013 Author Report Posted October 30, 2013 Bob, i wasnt talking about the 2k bing 55 bucks a gallon. I was talking about the conversion varnish. It is some of the best stuff. As Wes stated, he has had great luck with it. Once i figured it out, it worked great. Dried very fast, but even with that fast drying finish, i still had shrinkback. Wes, I honestly dont really think it is a good option for me either. More of the idea of it that i like. I wish there were other ways to get a rock hard clear finish like polyester, other than epoxy. Which i might actually consider here soon. Quote
bob123 Posted October 30, 2013 Report Posted October 30, 2013 Right on. Id still suggest trying out the cat urethane. It dries rock hard in a few hours and buffs out really well. Im in michigan, and we have some wonky weather, and it never seemed to matter. Its easy to spray and cleans well if you do it right away. It is a bit pricey, but a little bit goes a long way here. 2 coats has been plenty, i guess 3 if you really wanna go all out. 3 full guitars, and 3 extra bodies, and ive probably thrown about half of it away too. Quote
HuntinDoug Posted October 31, 2013 Report Posted October 31, 2013 The last time i ordered, i just called them : Phone: (951)279-7010 Ive used the 2081 white and the 20x50ts clear sanding sealers. They will grain fill sapele with one application, and sand easily. It is pretty nasty stuff. A good resp is required for spraying and sanding. The downside is the cost. But the end result is well worth it. I quit doing my own finishing a while back. I send everything out now. The guy I use is in Cinci. He paints all the BC Rich USA customs. He will only use Simtec sealer & clear. Quote
demonx Posted November 1, 2013 Report Posted November 1, 2013 Some people love the Simtec some people hate it. I myself don't have an opinion as I've never used it. It is meant to be top shelf along with PPG and HOK. I know one guy in the USA whom I respect his opinion who's been a painter for decades. Their whole workshop dropped the PPG brand as it was too expensive and swapped over to the Simtec system. After a while they went back to PPG as they just weren't getting the same quality finishes. I have also spoken to a local painter who is quite skilled/knowledgable and his opinion was that Simtec (clears) do not age as well as PPG or HOK and he will not touch the stuff, however same again, this is second hand info, not my own experiences. I think a lot of guys are using Simtec these days as it is cheaper than the other brands I mentioned (around here it is anyway) I should note I'm referring to comparisons on their 2k urethanes, so I would assume their Polyesters are of similar comparison? Quote
Prostheta Posted November 2, 2013 Report Posted November 2, 2013 Apples and oranges unless the quality issues are a company and not a product range issue I would have thought. First hand experience is needed. Quote
westhemann Posted November 24, 2013 Report Posted November 24, 2013 I need to start doing film finishes again,so I will be busting out the conversion varnish soon.I have been doing "natural" looking crap for too long and I have to accept that I will never be happy with the quality of my builds unless they are topped off with a nice,thick,proper finish. I hope that makes sense...I am pretty toasted right now and I am only 60% sure I am in the right topic Quote
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