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[Prostheta]

Funny thing, Scott. I have a gouge which I bought ground as an out cannel gouge. Yours are in cannel which was a lot of grinding to alter to. Not sure of the comparative uses. I guess concave or convex surfaces?

[ScottR]

Actually, you may have misread my comment. Mine are all with the bevel on the outside- what you are calling out cannel. I've never even seen an in cannel (or heard the term) till psikoT posted his picture. This is the best explanation I came up with:

"Chris Pye | April 12, 2012 19:03

Sandy - The 'cannel' is the technical term for the 'channel' of any tool: such as a gouge, but even a V tool. In-cannel gouges are essentially curved, single-bevel bench chisels, with the bevel on the inside (in the cannel). They have long, thick, narrow blades and are specifically used by cabinetmakers for running precise flutes or paring an exact inside curve. In-cannel gouges are NOT carving tools and of no use to us carvers - I don't possess any and because of the length and thickness I wouldn't even consider converting one. So, not tools to even think about! You COULD call a normal carving gouge with an 'outside' bevel an 'out-cannel' gouge, but I've never actually heard the term: to carvers, a gouge is a gouge is a gouge..."

The bevel on the outside allows the blade to rock during the cut creating those nice spoon shaped divits and chips. It sounds like the in cannel is made for cutting long flutes and runnels. It also sounds like psikoT may have some problems with it.

SR

[ScottR]

Here is a more in depth explanation:

"In-cannel gouges excel at paring a concave curve. Conversley, out-cannel gouges are for paring convex curves.

In paring situations, you want to make a cut parallel to the surface being pared (and perpendicular to the face). Using a gouge with the bevel on the wrong side would mean angling the tool severely, making accurate paring difficult at best, because you would be referencing the cut off of the bevel of the tool, not the flat side. Having the bevel on the proper side of the gouge (opposite of the reference side) allows you to make a vertical plunge cut, perpendicular to the face of the board, thereby making an accurate, square paring cut.

Consider the table apron below.

In-cannel vs. Out-cannel Gouges.JPG

In-cannel gouges additionally are best for coping operations such as where two sections of molding meet at an inside corner like you might have in the gallery of a secretary or on a block front chest. These junctions are best coped rather than mitered to prevent an ugly separation of the corner during seasonal movements (not as obvious in a coped joint as a mitered joint), plus coping is easier than getting a precise, gap free miter.

Because the area being coped is typically concave, the incannel gouges work best. Think of the thumbnail profile on the inside edge of a cabinet door frame of a raised panel door. This joint is done with cope and stick bits with a router. However, in hand work, the rail is tennoned into the stile and the molded edge on the inside of the door frame meets at an inside corner. It's much easier to cope this joint instead of mitering it. It makes for a tighter fit and is less finicky to get right than an inside miter.

Of course if the molding is a complex series of convex and concave curves, it's easiest to use both in-cannel and out-cannel gouges together, using the in-cannel to cope the concave curves and the out cannel to cope the convex curves.

In-cannel and Out-cannel gouges can also both be used for carving operations. We typically think of out-cannel gouges for carving and this is generally true when we talk about relief carving of things like shells, B&C feet, acanthus knee carvings, etc. However, in doing larger, more sculptural type carving, like roughing in the shapes of a gooseneck molding on a bonnet top high chest, the out-cannel bench gouges (not thinner more delicate carving gouges) can be used to rough in the concave areas where the out-cannel will ride its bevel and the in-cannel bench gouges can be used to rough in the convex areas where the in-cannel will ride its bevel. Of course the convex areas can also be roughed in with a chisel.

Regarding turning an out-cannel into an in-cannel by grinding, this can be done as long as the tool is not of the laminated design where the harder tool steel is laminated to a softer backing steel. In these tools, the harder tool steel would be on the wrong side of the curve if you were to regrind. However, as long as the tool is not laminated but rather one solid piece of tool steel, you should be able to regrind an out-cannel into an in-cannel.

FWIW, I think in-cannel gouges are a very under-rated and under-used tool these days. Most of the time they are associated with patternmakers, however, there are plenty of uses for them in furniture making as well."

[psikoT]

It also sounds like psikoT may have some problems with it.

I already had some problems trying to carve the slots in the piece of wood I was going to use to strop it, it is almost impossible to make a straight slot due to the curve in the back side. Attached a picture from the side, where you can see that curved back... I was thinking, since the carving I'm gonna do is mostly concave, that it could work, but probably I'll need some other gouges to make it well.

Anyway, I bought another out-cannel gouge yesterday, before reading your posts... an inexpensive one, but not cheap. I will start with the tools I have and if I see there's no way, I'll consider to get some decent tools. I just didn't want to spend big money just for this carve.

Thanks Scott for the info... it was really in time.

[Prostheta]

Huh. That curve makes it more like what, a long-handled spoon of sorts? From the looks of it, that is something that I would like to handle for a bit.

Excellent info on in/out cannel gouges, Scott. Totally over and above. I dug up some info on wood turning that doesn't really apply here. Do I win something also?

I found one of the most useful bits of information about chisels is about how a lot of the time, they move parallel to the direction of the bevel and not always the body, and generally somewhere in between in a "captured" cut. Looking at a cut from that perspective altered how I use chisels hugely for the better in terms of applying motivating force for a controlled and expected result.

I think when you figure out the right way of sharpening and maintaining that chisel psikoT, it'll become a matter of feel for you. My big 25mm chisel was always hanging around my bench for any number of things; so much so, I developed a keen sense for when I should give it a little care instead of continuing to use it. Not that it wasn't sharp, but when the edge had struck through to the working surface when chopping. That can change an edge for the worse.

[ScottR]

You win a Duvel Tripel Hop.

I haven't turned anything in ages, but I always thought it was great fun. That is one of those tools that I always thought I would love to have......but know it would sit idle too long......I think.

I learned quite a bit myself in that little exercise, thanks for raising the question. You are absolutely correct about it becoming a matter of feel. The down side of that is once you become so comfortable with carving with these things it becomes easy to become lost in what you are doing. It is almost therapeutic. That's when you can lose track of where your off hand is. I've got a half dozen or so little smile shaped scars on my left hand to prove it.

psikoT consider using dowels to help with your stropping. You can use one with sandpaper to clean up your channel you cut to strop the outside, and use the dowel itself to strop the inside.

SR

[Prostheta]

Actually, I won a Mufloni CCCCC IPA. Locally brewed but regarded as world class by many reviewers.

Maybe bend a bit of leather over a bit of thin wood to make a convex strop? If the internal radius of the bevel is about 12mm, a piece of 3mm thick leather over a strip of wood 10mm wide with the corners rounded over (10+3+3=13) allows enough fudge for the leather to conform and apply pressure. At least, that is the first thing I would experiment with. Anything smaller, definitely a stick of dowel.

[psikoT]

Hi,

already started with this... it was not so hard and the gouge worked like a charm... at least in the direction of the grain. I must say that you feel much more control when doing precise cuts, while you're reaching the final shape.

The first thing I did was to route the holes area to have an idea of the limits...

The left side is going to be lower than the flat surface... I'll do it tomorrow, maybe.

And that's all for now... it was funny, the gouge is sharp enough, I've used the strop in the wood a couple of times, but in general works ok. If I do this in the future, I'll prepare all the pro stuff needed, leather included.

Thanks for watching!

[Prostheta]

I'd have to agree with you. That's the result you want. The sharpness you want is where you can gently pare off the pointy raised lines between each groove without any crushing, pulling or parting of the fibres. A gooseneck scraper would make short work of that also. How is the chisel working when the grain decides to drop out? Any splintering with the grain?

Beautiful choice of shots too. You should consider writing more about your builds in future!

Can't wait to hear Scott chime in when he casts his beady troll-carving eyes over this....

[psikoT]

How is the chisel working when the grain decides to drop out? Any splintering with the grain?

Well, I couldn't compare with others, mostly because is the first time I use this... ^^ but the area the left side of the view was breaking all the time, even in the direction of the grain. I don't know why, maybe because I was just removing big chunks of wood, still didn't any fine cut over there, or just because the shape... but it didn't behave like the area in the right. Probably is more of lack of experience than a wood/tool related issue... in any case, I have to be more careful in that area.

In the other hand, the area in the right was really pleasant... the chisel worked like a charm, specially when applying almost no pressure... it allowed to me to cut long grooves with no effort. Very nice experience BTW.

[ScottR]

How is the chisel working when the grain decides to drop out? Any splintering with the grain?

Well, I couldn't compare with others, mostly because is the first time I use this... ^^ but the area the left side of the view was breaking all the time, even in the direction of the grain. I don't know why, maybe because I was just removing big chunks of wood, still didn't any fine cut over there, or just because the shape... but it didn't behave like the area in the right. Probably is more of lack of experience than a wood/tool related issue... in any case, I have to be more careful in that area.

In the other hand, the area in the right was really pleasant... the chisel worked like a charm, specially when applying almost no pressure... it allowed to me to cut long grooves with no effort. Very nice experience BTW.

I think on the left side you experienced how the tool can act like a wedge does when splitting logs. When cutting with the grain it can part the wood instead of cutting it, which splits off big chunks that leave ragged edges. It is pretty handy when you want to remove a lot of wood fairly quickly. But it can be difficult to control when you need accuracy. Cutting across the grain or at an angle to it is usually much more accurate and gives you clean edged cuts, which is what you were doing on the right side of the image. Note that carving down into the grain counts as cutting across the grain. When you come out the downward angle of the cut and change to cutting flat along the grain is where the splintering would normally start, and that looks like what I'm seeing in your pics. This is usually what you should expect when carving with these tools, but every piece of wood behaves a little differently. You've got to test them out and see how they want to act. Carving heavily figured wood is especially entertaining.

That feeling of control and the ability to shape the wood a little more creatively is nice, huh? You've got a good looking start there, nicely done!

SR

[Prostheta]

Giddy as I am for hand-cut rasps, these concave surfaces are just what they cannot manage....without buying an additional specialist tool for the job.

I love a sharp chisel which is tuned so well that the cutting action defies the wedging along the grain. Doesn't always work, but feels like total control when it does. Those picture tell a thousand, psikoT. Woo.

[psikoT]

Thanks guys for the directions... I was thinking on them all the time.

Here some progress. As I said, it's not going to be easy, specially that second level in the left side. I will need to use other tools in order to get the final shape I have in mind.

But the chiseling is going better, I already have some hours of experience... ^^

I did a sanding test, just to see what's going on... it still needs a lot of work.

Just as anecdote, the straight edge you can see in the left side, on top, is made entirely with the gouge... I don't believe that I could get that precision.

Thanks for watching!

[ScottR]

Just as anecdote, the straight edge you can see in the left side, on top, is made entirely with the gouge... I don't believe that I could get that precision.

SR

[Prostheta]

I might have to clear off the workbench now and get to carving a top for a bass. Goddamnit.

[psikoT]

Some progress on this... once the body is roughly finished, it's time to carve the neck joint...

I've removed the wood I don't need... now I have to make kinda transition between the body and the neck... and the laminates will flush around the joint. This was an experiment, not sure about the results.

Here you can see that still needs more passes with the gouge, but it's really easy with this one I'm using... it allows me to make long grooves with no effort, very precisely.

And that's all for now... more to come.

[ScottR]

Nice clean work; I like where this is going.

SR

[Prostheta]

I agree with what you've marked out on here too. The upper cutaway need to become deeper to sweep across the three neck laminates and meet the centreline gracefully. There's so much scope for shaping in these, it's ridiculous. Keep it up!

[SwedishLuthier]

You promised something special and that is exactly what you are serving us! Nice!

[psikoT]

Hi guys, thanks for comments...

Here the final shape, more or less... still needs lots of sanding but I think I got it.

The 3 veneers heel... well, I was not sure about the result, but it turned out much better than expected... I was planning this for months and couldn't figure out the shape in my mind. I'm very happy with the whole thing, a super access for a bolt-on singlecut.

There was an incident near one of the bolts, the alder chipped out a lil bit... does anyone know if there's a solution for that?

There are still some bumps I have to sand and planes I have to tweak, but the hard work is done.

Hey, thanks for watching and specially for the advice in carving... next time I will prepare all the stuff needed.

[ScottR]

Very nice! I'm looking forward to seeing how you handle blending that transition in after you carve your neck......assuming you haven't invented a brand new square edged neck profile.

Find or make yourself a matching chip out of scrap alder and glue it in. If it turns out you're not happy with the way that comes out, just sand that area a little lower till the chip is gone or the repair is invisible. It won't affect the neck join at all.

SR

[psikoT]

I wanted to finish with the router before continuing, so the pickup pockets were the only cavities left to do.

That's how I make the templates for pickup cavities. First I stick some squared wood pieces around the perimeter, previously drawn in the template. Double sided tape doesn't work itself, so I had to put some nails to fix them so they don't move with the router pressure.

I have no pictures with the nails, but you get the idea...

And then, with an inverted copy bit I route the template... looks nice.

Once I have the template, I can route the cavities on the body...

And that's all for now.

Cheers

[psikoT]

Very nice! I'm looking forward to seeing how you handle blending that transition in after you carve your neck......assuming you haven't invented a brand new square edged neck profile.

Find or make yourself a matching chip out of scrap alder and glue it in. If it turns out you're not happy with the way that comes out, just sand that area a little lower till the chip is gone or the repair is invisible. It won't affect the neck join at all.

SR

Actually, I feel very lazy to carve the neck, don't give me ideas...

Thanks, let's see how that chip works.

[Prostheta]

You are the gift that keeps on giving! Wow.

[ScottR]

Very nice! I'm looking forward to seeing how you handle blending that transition in after you carve your neck......assuming you haven't invented a brand new square edged neck profile.

Find or make yourself a matching chip out of scrap alder and glue it in. If it turns out you're not happy with the way that comes out, just sand that area a little lower till the chip is gone or the repair is invisible. It won't affect the neck join at all.

SR

Actually, I feel very lazy to carve the neck, don't give me ideas...

Thanks, let's see how that chip works.

I forgot you were planning to paint it black. If that's the case, it doesn't matter how nice the chip repair looks. Just glue it in, sand it flush and paint.

SR