Cthulhu

[Bizman62]

That piece of Chaos looks fantastic!

Out of the blue this popped into my head and I started to wonder if it were plausible: Now that the pieces are laid in place would spraying some translucent paint over the entire layout draw relatively ecact lines for carving?

[komodo]

45 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

That piece of Chaos looks fantastic!

Out of the blue this popped into my head and I started to wonder if it were plausible: Now that the pieces are laid in place would spraying some translucent paint over the entire layout draw relatively ecact lines for carving?

Thanks!

I've gone through so many possible scenarios in my head. My issue with that one is possible areas where there is not a hard edge - there must be one everywhere. Once you have the Dremel in the base, and you are hyper focused on a tiny area, it is extremely easy to lose your way. Also, if any area wears off, same problem. The biggest issue is that these pieces are so small and just don't want to stay put. The tiniest shift results in the "image" being slightly off, and that effects other pieces.

A similar way, and devised for intricate inlays is to spray the board with adhesive spray, place your pieces and then shower it with a powder.

The needs here are:
-A way to attach the pieces so they do not move and the final placement can be set - BUT not so strong that delicate ones can be removed for sure without breaking.
-A way to scribe or mark the edges with high contrast and maps the actual pieces in their actual placement.

One considered way is to print the same design and affix it to the board and route that. Gambling that what I cut is close to the design. The design was glued onto the pearl, so it should be close but that is a sloppy way. Considering the detail, I'm not ruling it out.

Another way, is to print the design in light grey on white, affix it to the board, then scribe each piece with a fine pencil. It would allow me to hold it in place, check its orientation and have a close scribe. It's erasable and fixable. I'm leaning this way.

Last way is to leave it as-is, lay a paper towel over it and use a hot iron to press it down into the wood. Since this is an overly optimistic, fictitious drunken rambling (and quite frankly, magical) method, I will not attempt it this way.

[Bizman62]

Obviously similar thoughts have popped into several minds, the adhesive spray and powder sounds like an improved method of spraying paint as it would hold the pieces in place while applying the contrasting powder. Low tack spray glue might work even with the most delicate pieces.

The option you're leaning towards sounds viable. A variation of that would be printing on paper or plastic sticker material which would stay in the right place while scribing with a pointy X-acto knife.

[mistermikev]

even watching you cut mop makes me uncomfortable.  For me, that'd just be like eating rice with 3 foot chopsticks.  the other day a buddy of mine sent me a link to a 8k prs with some elab inlay... I sent him back a shot of your mop in progress... really is a high water mark for inlay.

[komodo]

Thanks @mistermikev

While this is certainly elaborate and easily the largest thing I'll ever do - it is something anyone could do. Inlay is not inherently difficult. Imagine laying tile in your house, it's kinda the same. There are some considerations and challenges with this one, and it is a time suck. But, we are doing this for fun? For the time suck? This particular inlay is no different than many typical tree-of-life type inlays, and as a matter of fact it's easier as I have many long and large pieces. It's the little ones that are a bitch. All the stuff around Cthulhus head is really a PITA, but once out of there, it's not bad at all.

If you want to see real inlay artistry, look to Larry Robinson or similar and see what people do with a mix of materials or when they go for realism. Stunning stuff.

https://robinsoninlays.com/

[Bizman62]

Holy Mother of Pearl! I bet the delivery times for Robinson inlays isn't measured in weeks...

On our trip to Turkey a visit to a carpet factory/wholesale was a similar eye-opener. The most expensive carpet was hung on the wall and it was only some 50x50 cm large! What made it so expensive was the amount of hand tied knots per square cm which was far more than on the best quality large ones. An almost photorealistic landscape made by tying knots, using the finest silk yarn... Such masterpieces usually are the swan song of a carpet weaver at the point when she's developed her skills to the maximum but still has the sensitivity and strength left in her fingers before occupational arthritis forces her to retire.

What kind of occupational diseases or disorders are involved in inlaying and how long may be the productive time for a professional with all current health and safety protection?

[Prostheta]

In terms of respiratory safety, I would say that it depends on how well one's extraction works. I'm unsure on the requirements of shell dust from sawing, however sanding it would be the real issue. That is likely HEPA levels of filtration, however as a rule one should consider this for any dry abrasion and cutting of fine materials. My personal shop extractor is rated a level below the HEPA equivalent. Festool extractors for example, go up almost a magnitude in price when moving from low to medium (CTL vs CTM units). For occupational health and safety, this financial distinction is meaningless of course. You go with what you HAVE to use, not what you can afford. The bottom line is that you can't capture it all. Combining the handling of hazards at source with breathing protection is likely best practice.

A lot of the work involved in inlay involves a close-quarters approach, which often makes safety equipment more burdensome. It's difficult to isolate the worker from the work when they're less than a metre away, and safety equipment soon fills up that limited working space and can impact productivity and/or quality. A lot of basic safety masks fog up my glasses for example. If I had to make a proposal on safe working for this type of work, I'd likely look at the stained glass approach of using water-cooled diamond grinding and cutting tools. They're hardly as precise as an experienced operator with a pearl saw, but wet slurry doesn't kill your lungs.

Equally, it isn't unfeasible to just cut things on CNC on a wet bed with directed spray. Take the computer out of the equation and you might just use a pantograph over a dammed workbed. At the levels most people work at on an amateur level though, a little pearl isn't going to kill you. The obligatory (after-during-pre) working beer is more dangerous.

This isn't intended to form any sort of recommendation and is simply my back-of-a-beermat opinion. Your mileage may vary, contents may settle in transit, serving suggestion not medical guidance, etc.

[Gogzs]

19 hours ago, komodo said:

You aren't wrong!

 I will spend a good while examining how pieces fit next to each other, and filing them so the transitions are better. Also, smoothing curves that are easy to see now, but not when doing the single piece. You can see things in the pictures that is apparent, but in person the pieces are very small and it's not apparent. 

Then, the excavation. There is no way to get this to a Larry Robinson level where the pieces snap in (!) . . . I will be lucky to not make a mess of it. The real trick here is the complexity of the center bit and not blowing out brittle chunks of negative area, as well as having each piece aligned just right. I've got the ebony dust - CA fill tricks to back me up, but the goal is for that to be as minimal as possible. 

Yeah, filing them down to perfection is one issue now, marking and excavation another. And with such fine details, even the smallest offset will be like a punch in the face. This is nuts on so many levels, I'm sure it'll look stunning, but damn man... 

[ScottR]

11 hours ago, komodo said:

If you want to see real inlay artistry, look to Larry Robinson or similar and see what people do with a mix of materials or when they go for realism. Stunning stuff.

Damme, he doesn't leave much wood on some of those.

SR

[Prostheta]

This my friend, is the art of inlaying wood within shell.

[komodo]

I use full respirator, same as spraying nitro. You have to be right up on it with magnifiers, and use needle files a lot to fine tune. Dust pretty much falls straight down, but it is extremely fine and certainly airborne. Also, I sweep up that area after every session.

You breathe the same level of micro dust in your shop unless your dust collection is A+. After working in your shop for  1/2 hour, turn off the lights and turn on a flashlight (torch for my brit buds) and look at the fine dust in suspension. It's alarming. The difference with pearl dust is that your body will not process it and it can lead to silicosis in your lungs.

Everyone should try it. Tools are simple: saw frame, lots of blades, lubricant, stable surface to cut on with a V or slotted area for the blade, needle files. Material and patience. That's about it.

[ScottR]

9 minutes ago, komodo said:

That's about it.

High end hand eye coordination is kind of useful too.

SR

[Prostheta]

Exactly. I'm not even sure if your body actually processes wood dust really....that causes fine scarring in the lungs.

[mistermikev]

12 hours ago, komodo said:

Thanks @mistermikev

While this is certainly elaborate and easily the largest thing I'll ever do - it is something anyone could do. Inlay is not inherently difficult. Imagine laying tile in your house, it's kinda the same. There are some considerations and challenges with this one, and it is a time suck. But, we are doing this for fun? For the time suck? This particular inlay is no different than many typical tree-of-life type inlays, and as a matter of fact it's easier as I have many long and large pieces. It's the little ones that are a bitch. All the stuff around Cthulhus head is really a PITA, but once out of there, it's not bad at all.

If you want to see real inlay artistry, look to Larry Robinson or similar and see what people do with a mix of materials or when they go for realism. Stunning stuff.

https://robinsoninlays.com/

i think you can give yourself a whole lot more credit than that.  yeah, it's the little stuff that would def be a killer for me. 

wow, that larry robinson... that stuff is craZ!  thanks for pointing me to that.

[komodo]

Scribed, and filled in for visibility. Please don’t let anyone in the Lovecraft Society know that I made a pink Cthulhu. They will take my card away.

First I tried milk as a binder which works excellently on glass, but not on wood. Reapplied using Titebond, so the paper should ‘t shred and pull-up as I route.

 

[Bizman62]

5 hours ago, komodo said:

First I tried milk as a binder which works excellently on glass, but not on wood.

Cooked potato (regular, not sweet) might work also on wood, have only used it on glass though.

Pink was considered a male colour for boys until about a hundred years ago someone swapped pink and light blue between the sexes. Red is the colour of blood and violence and the red planet of Mars which was named after the Roman God of War, all connected to male activities like warfare and hunting, and pink was the light version for men to become. If the Lovecraft Society tried to argue about the colour you could say that it's a lighter shade of crimson widely worn by "miniature men" during Lovecraft's lifetime.

[komodo]

[komodo]

It’s in. My route was sloppy af. The paper idea did not cooperate and instead of cutting clean, it kinda lifted and made it hard to see. I thought I had a pretty good bead on the edges but still had to do a lot more fill than I’d like, but it’s in and I’m happy enough that it is. On e the board is oiled, the fill tends to slip away a little more. 

Now I slice through all the pearl that should be a fret slot and make sure they are the right width. Fretting will be an adventure.

[ScottR]

Effing awesome!

Tell the truth-- was it scary? particularly cutting fret slots?

Celebrate enough tonight that you need to take Monday off.

SR

[komodo]

42 minutes ago, ScottR said:

Effing awesome!

Tell the truth-- was it scary? particularly cutting fret slots?

Celebrate enough tonight that you need to take Monday off.

Thanks! Not scary, most of it is just a long methodical slog. There was much swearing when I knew I went outside a line or heard the Dremel hit and edge it wasn't supposed to 'BZZZT'. You are focusing on a little 1/8" patch for a LONG time as you work your way through it.

Fret slots aren't too bad. I start with a StewMac .008 saw just to get through the pearl, then follow with a .020 to finish. It's not so bad unless you have more pearl than wood to get through. The saws get through it ok, they just don't bite as well.

Well, I've got some major digestive, ulcery, reflux, something or other going on, and doc has me on strong meds - so I've done all this sober. LOL. Miss the beer, but I know how it feels when drinking it, so no ty.

At this rate I may finish this one before the Black Queen. It's been in finish surgery with all those checks, buts doing quite well. Nearly 100% recovery. I've also been repairing a synth, and building a 1x10 Thiele type cab for a killer Celestion G10S I bought from Paul Rivera. LOL.

[ADFinlayson]

There is nothing sloppy looking about that bud, pretty f$%kin' awesome!

[Bizman62]

Some people do whatever they want, some won't even do what their skills would allow. You're one of the former.

[Prostheta]

I've spent more time looking over those photos than I would care to state. At risk of labelling myself a churlish git, there's only a couple of minor misalignments and a repair visible. Even then, they are not something anybody should ever consider kicking themselves over as they'll disappear once frets are in and the board is polished through. The fact that it looks exceptional in this unfinished state is testament enough to the sensitive work that's gone into it.

Onwards and upwards man. Or at least, older and deeper? Not sure.

[komodo]

On 6/1/2020 at 2:39 AM, Prostheta said:

churlish git

lmao

There are a LOT of misalignments and repairs. Mostly, way too large of routes with filler. Also, when you glue down the cut paper piece onto the pearl, I took care in picking good pieces, hopefully color matched as well. Well, that color changes a lot with light direction (like wood figuring) and even through the piece itself. End result is there are a few pieces that are more gold than white. Many of the inlaid pieces are actually very gold on the bottom side, and pure white on top.

Anyhoo, none of it bothers me, as yes when the frets are in and strings on, you will see it but as a larger whole.

BTW - the one thing you are not, is a churlish git.

[Prostheta]

Unless you are an absolutely experienced inlayer that works on pieces full-time to the exclusion of anything else, errors are just part of the game. I studied marquetry as part of my first degree, using fret saws to cut packs of veneer, sand shading and all that good stuff. It's hard even when you have no deadline, all the setup and full clear days to work on it. This is entirely why I suggested early on that a pantograph might ease matters in some ways. Even then, repairs and misalignments can occur. The fact that you've paid attention to colour matching and general light effects is another step above that a lot of home gamers forget, or simply can't afford to do because of the horrendously-large amount of selection waste. Again, a full-time inlayer will generally have enough free stock available to do this as part of the process rather than buying job to job.

If you look at Larry Robinson's work, his lines are still not laser-precise piece-to-piece and he's a modern master of the craft. To a degree any imprecision can be offset by smart use of graving or other ideas back at the design stage. Some things simply can't be avoided without issues that require huge wastes of material, time and money. If it were absolutely pristine and looked like it was made by machine and not human hand, most people mentally gloss over it. Inconsistency from handwork underlines that it was all done by hand, and garners more attention on that basis.

It is what it is. If you were inlaying in less forgiving materials than Ebony it might have needed a different approach. But hey, you're 100% cognisant of any flaws in process or result, and I know you'll just take that forward and be a better craftsman because of that. Some people are slap happy and good enough is just good-enough. I hope you've plenty of ideas going forward. Don't stop!