Cthulhu

[Prostheta]

<slightly hungover edit>

Few woods hold a good thread finer than that of a wood screw form. I've always used the inserts that cut their own upon installation first go. Tapping is good in woods that will hold details (African Blackwood springs to mind) but not always ideal. Cocobolo should hold a decent thread, which is what seems to be the case here. A good call. Maple crumbles and Mahogany-a-likes are too coarse and tear.

For my own bolt-on builds, I've more or less settled on M5 countersunk Allen head machine bolts. The inserts always go in once, to a slightly countersunk pilot slightly smaller than the external diameter of the thread, not the insert body.

 

I have to say that I like @RestorationAD's method of fitting simple t-nuts into recesses under the fingerboard glueing surface. These would be super awesome if they came in stainless with smaller threading. Can you feel the silly mojo from these?

[mistermikev]

14 hours ago, komodo said:

I think these are perfect for any neck really. I used six because of the extra string tension, and I've got a lot of heel space up into the pup cavity. The 10-24 bolts are pretty similar to regular neck screws and probably a finer pitch. I'd use 4 for a strat.

http://www.philtone.com/inserts.html

I don't agree with his 23/64" pilot hole. I drilled and tapped 4 holes sizes, progressively smaller to find the right size. 5/16 worked great in Coco with maximum thread contact.

right on.  I' guess I've had some terrible experiences with mounting these for pickups but I'm guessing that had more to do with the inserts themselves (broke off the phillips thread). 

5 hours ago, Prostheta said:

<slightly hungover edit>

Few woods hold a good thread finer than that of a wood screw form. I've always used the inserts that cut their own upon installation first go. Tapping is good in woods that will hold details (African Blackwood springs to mind) but not always ideal. Cocobolo should hold a decent thread, which is what seems to be the case here. A good call. Maple crumbles and Mahogany-a-likes are too coarse and tear.

For my own bolt-on builds, I've more or less settled on M5 countersunk Allen head machine bolts. The inserts always go in once, to a slightly countersunk pilot slightly smaller than the external diameter of the thread, not the insert body.

 

I have to say that I like @RestorationAD's method of fitting simple t-nuts into recesses under the fingerboard glueing surface. These would be super awesome if they came in stainless with smaller threading. Can you feel the silly mojo from these?

the t nut idea is pretty cool... but def comes a bit close to the edge there.  def going to spread that stress out quite a bit tho.

 

thanks both for the insight.

[Prostheta]

To my mind, that's the gold standard for a bolt-on neck joint; for the fasteners to be in high levels of tension and spread the load out over a large part of the heel and neck. Wood screws only go so far, and given enough torquing will strip out the wood. It can easily get to the point of wanting to believe that higher tension in the fasteners equals better coupling and moar toanz. Mechanically-sound and over-engineered never does any harm as long as it isn't pointlessly over the top.

[komodo]

Brass inserts, too soft and easy to destroy the slot or strip the allen socket. I was thinking these may be tough to insert, but they were just right. Strength of the carbon steel helps me sleep.

Coco was easy to tap, and even with the 5/16” hole, could be put in with fingers until the last couple threads. Screwdriver gave a nice firm finish. The 3/8” thread is quite coarse, will help me sleep well.

@Prostheta Moar toanz was exactly my goal here with the extended range. Also, I didn’t want the neck to pop off.

 

[Prostheta]

Yes. For strength brass is the bare minimum, steel is ideal. The bottom line is that zinc alloys and aren't an option, especially since they crumble during insertion! I think that using similar metals in terms of anodic index (steel and steel) is wise for long term protection against seizing as dissimilar metals exchange electrons and corrode.

I'm sure that there will be moar toanz on tap thanks to the non-Euclidian geometry of the fingerboard.

[komodo]

Neck is maybe 95% done, still need some final scraping and minor sanding. Feels like an F1 car. It’s ridiculous. The swamp ash is SO light, and the weight lost from neck carving brings the total weight to exactly 6 pounds right now without hardware. but its also really balanced which I don’t get but am not complaining!!

[ScottR]

Dense necks get a bad rap for neck dive, but I use them all the time and my guitars always balance right at the neck join.

I may have said this before.....but this is sooooo sexy!

SR

[komodo]

Thanks Scott. There's something about the geometry, with the bridge being so far back, the whole body compressed in the lower part, the neck set really far into the body, yet clear access up to 24. It all compliments the fanned frets and just works. Hopefully with hardware, it's still balanced. I've got Sperzel open backs again which are super light, and the two Fishman pups plus battery should keep it there.

[komodo]

Experimented with the Quebracho tea that adds tannin to the ash, then vinegar/rust solution for ebonizing. The brown pieces are the tea, the wet black was just after a second wet coat. The next pic is the next day after it dried. Sooooper jet black. But, it doesn’t get into then deep grain of the ash. Plan B is leather dye which is equally black and covers everything. Very messy.

[komodo]

Tried again with the Quebracho. You can mix it with water, DNA or acetone. This time I tried DNA thinking it may soak in better and not raise grain. But I also sanded a previous example and hit that. First, the dyed layer is quite difficult to sand off (good), second, it’s a really nice rich black (not blueish or grey, a mix of all colors), and maybe some sanding dust got into the grain? IDK but this time it really turned solid black. It’s blacker than aniline dyes. So, we’re back in black, and none more black it is! 

[Prostheta]

Inky! Like that thing which killed Tasha Yar.

[komodo]

Fine sanding, edges broken, lines honed. Tea painted. Looks splotchy but remember it’s only for loading tannin into it.

[ScottR]

That tea kind of knocked the ash out of it.....

SR

[komodo]

Lots of headway.

Routed for battery box and jack plate.

Fixed pickguard (with great effort!), sanding out scratches. Located and drilled for volume, pup switch and Fluence voice switch.

Located and drilled string throughs and used the pin locating trick for back ferrules and STILL didn’t get it tight on. That has to be the single hardest operation in building guitars by hand.

Also have a few coats of the Fiddes hard wax oil in the test piece, it’s a slammin’ finish, and super easy.

Getting close. Need nut, frets, final neck shaping and finishing, drilling tuner holes, and wiring.

When I had the neck bolted in (strong af) and the top and bottom strings on to locate the bridge, it got pretty exciting to look at. lol

[ScottR]

11 hours ago, komodo said:

Located and drilled string throughs and used the pin locating trick for back ferrules and STILL didn’t get it tight on. That has to be the single hardest operation in building guitars by hand.

Yes, although yours look better than mine and you had two extra holes to not screw up.

So many bits a geometry have to be perfect to get a perfect result. Perfectly parallel front and back surfaces, 90 degree angles, rigid clamping, bit deflection and so on.

I just noticed the tea brought out a bit of that chain link fence figure in your ash (back near the belly carve) that I had in my last ash builds.

Are you already imagining how it sounds?

SR

[Prostheta]

I suspect this comes down to using a twist drill bit. They work by compressing waste from the inside outwards, which is prone to leaving a poorer edge finish and is guided on the auspice of equal pressure from both cutting edges. Ash (like in Oak, the last time I did this) has significant differences in density through the ring structures, meaning tool pressure across the cutting edges and the point where they meet often becoming asymmetric as you progress, encouraging wander.

Using a brad point/lip and spur bit is far less wander prone and compresses waste away from the edges and also from the spur. If the hole is started without a punched centre point or a pilot hole, twist drills will deflect and wander very easily. They'll do WTFTW. If you absolutely have to use a twist drill, drill a pilot to provide an easier path of least resistance.

Stub drill bits are great for establishing a pilot since they have less hanging out in the wind to deflect. Even better, centre drill bits. Depending on what size you're drilling out to, you might even find one in the size you need(ed) and not need to use a twist drill in the first place. They're just about long enough to open out a ferrule location on their own.

I've never actually done string through holes using the drill press platen pin method as there's a high reliance on the drill press mechanism having zero play, the bits not deflecting and the whole body setup being perpendicular. I've always checked and measured several times, marked the array line out by hand and used a locked off set of calipers or walking dividers to establish drilling pilot marks. The holes always meet in the middle well enough, and if they don't then you have to go back to honing those measuring and marking skills

Looking forward to seeing how this progresses post tea!

[komodo]

@Prostheta Of course you are right. I did this last at the end of a long day of work, shoulda slowed and thought about it that last 10%. Makes me want to plug them and try again. It will be jet black, so everything would be hidden. If it didn't come out perfect the second time, I'd probably hurt something.

There are times when I've resorted to twist bits because its the one I had in a non standard size. I think this was 23/64ths or some such nonsense, but when I drilled test pieces for fit, the 3/8" worked great. One thing I hate is when it's JUST too big and has slop. Of course, I've got more 3/8" bits of every kind on hand.

[Prostheta]

That's pretty much my permanent working mode, with the occasional 2% of time where I get to breathe and do things as they should be done. If the ferrules are lipped, any plugging and reworking will be covered. Easy. Just be careful that the glue you use doesn't create an impermeable line or other contamination that'll block out the finish. 23/64ths sounds like the ferrules were asking for 9mm or something along those lines? 3/8ths is near as damnit 9mm, and 0,5mm in the diameter is not so much that it's a problem unless there's a short grain structure path between holes. Depends on the retention pattern in the ferrule body. Ash is pretty hard and prone to issues, so I understand fully the need to err on the side of caution. Nothing wrong with a little Titebond or other glue to help with retention in a sloppy fit.

[komodo]

Eh, I didn't explain well. I thought they were 3/8", and have a little hole gauge to test and it felt a little loose, so I drilled test piece at 23/64" but it was too tight. Then tried 3/8" and it was great. The 23/64" bit I had was twist, and robotically moved up to the 3/8" instead of grabbing the brad point. Also, using the pin method, assuming it would be good as the front was perfect.

Ferrules are not lipped. Good warning about the glue line since this relies on the tannin reaction. If it got really bad, I could always do the long block with ferrules, maybe in coco.

[Prostheta]

I've been using hide glue a hell of a lot recently. It would be ideal for retaining ferrules in this instance. It doesn't permeate the wood like PVAc does, so a scrape and sand of any contamination clears it right up.

No explanation required. It's my dumb afternoon brain talking. I read, re-read and then realised I'd only absorbed 50%. It's that time of the year again. 

[komodo]

Like this:

“Jeff, why could you pop into your shop and build that in 1/2 hour out of stainless bar and get the holes perfect, when you coulda just done that with the ash in the first place?”

[Prostheta]

"Yeah Jeff, why is that?"

Man, I blame Monday or whatever goddamn day it is. So you're going down the route of making a retention bar instead? Works for me.

[komodo]

Well. I mean...I guess cause there it is. LOL

[Prostheta]

Ohhh. That's what that retention bar looking thing is! Nice drilling template. 

[komodo]

Made a new one, I wanted to make the inner holes smaller. Really pleased with the result. All I need to do now is route a 1/2” slot. This is going to add some mass to the body, it weighs 3.7oz and is made from stainless.