curtisa Posted January 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 8 hours ago, pan_kara said: swirling is a pain .. I tried it once so far (incidentally also on a headless body), had to actually dip the body twice in succession since the paint wasn't enough to cover the whole body. I think this is because of the surface area of what I was dipping into - a huge trash can, so deep but little area for the paint to spread over. But I'm using magic marble, not the borax trick. The multiscale strat is supposed to be swirled eventually, I think I'll try a baby bathtub this time. Too bad about the bubbles, it came out pretty cool otherwise, love the color combination. Super nice playing and tones on the demo BTW. I did a song once purely on VST, using the LePou amp sims - I have to say they do sound pretty decent. (moved on to the kemper since) That last attempt was with no-name automotive enamels, which seemed to work so much better than the Humbrols that everyone seems so keen on. If it wasn't for the air bubbles I would've run with it. Magic Marble is my backup plan. My only reason with going with the enamels was that I already had the colours handy and during testing it seemed to work well. The price of the MM is actually pretty similar to the Humbrols, so I probably should've gone with MM and avoided all the hassle. Thanks for the kind words regarding the demo. If my pockets ever get deep enough I'd like to get my hands on a Kemper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 7 hours ago, ScottR said: In years past, I used to do something similar with painting canvases. It was called marbleizing and it only involved floating oil based (artist) paints thinned with turpentine on water and creating the swirls you want on the surface and then dipping your canvas into that. For the vat, I just made a square frame out of lumber and laid a plastic tarp over and into it and stapled it to the frame. It made a nice big pool, and when the job is done, you just poke a hole in the bottom to drain it. The paint floats all but the tiniest amount stays in the plastic, which you roll up and toss into the garbage can. SR Same principle. I was surprised to know while researching the process that it's been around for centuries. The Turkish call it Ebru (paint floating on top of specially thickened water) and the Japanese have Suminagashi (ink floating on plain water). Both methods seem to be more about transferring the image to a flat surface, whereas the dipping is more troublesome to get right because the object has to pass through the paint layer. I'm just using a big old 75L plastic tub. I can get the patterns I want, just struggling with getting a good finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 Magic Marbles are also a bit tricky to use, or I haven't found a good recipe yet (how much paint / water temperature / ambient temperature). As for the Kemper, yea - its mind-blowing. 100% recommended! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 Funny, I'm very tempted by the Positive Grid BIAS head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 11 hours ago, pan_kara said: Magic Marbles are also a bit tricky to use, or I haven't found a good recipe yet (how much paint / water temperature / ambient temperature). As for the Kemper, yea - its mind-blowing. 100% recommended! I've seen videos of Devin Townsend demonstrating the AxeFX on Youtube that looks really interesting. Being able to dive into the "guts" of an amp model and tweak things at a component level is really appealing. Can the Kemper do that too? My tests of the MM paints seem to be a lot more forgiving than the enamels. Just cold water from the tap, much longer working time once the paint hits the water. Only drawback is the limited range of colours and trying to find a local supplier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 I don't remember where I got the magic marbles here, I think amazon.fr or .co.uk. I didn't figure out where to get the humbrols (or borax for that matter) so I went the MM route. We'll see in some time if I can get them to cooperate this time around. I suppose small water surface area was my main problem last time. Dipping pickup-sized objects was indeed very simple (and fun). Kemper - there are a few settings you can tweak for the amp models, but its not like AxeFX. There's just a few parameters that supposedly alter tube sagging parameters, "character", compression of the pick attack, and a few more. The idea is that here you basically don't _need_ to tweak anything, the models are just so good. These are not based on modeling the actual amps' circuit but instead on their "profiling" concept - you run your favorite amp through your favorite cab with your best mic placed just the way you like, your best preamp, desk etc - and feed the end of this whole signal chain back into the kemper. It then sends a bunch of noises to the amp, listens to what comes back and somehow captures the characteristics of the whole signal chain. You can then tweak and refine it if you like, but if done properly (and there are tons of profiles done by pro players/producers/engineers available) its usable out of the box. After all, you've just tweaked your perfect signal chain. I've tried modelers in the past and this is the first one that really feels like the real thing. Not only sounds, but feels - as you play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Third time's the charm. From this: To this: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 ....and what did we learn, exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 We learned that some of the best swirlies end up in the pickup chambers. SR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Or that next time I have a crazy idea for a paint finish I'll just pull these pictures out again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 ARRRRRRGHHHHHH! Excuse me while I go and pour myself several stiff drinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Leave those in there, put enough clear on it to level and call the paint job a crackle swirl and charge double for the hard to achieve special effect. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Yikes, I had that exact same thing happen to me on my white Explorer when I clearcoated over the base colour. I'd like to know whether those cracks could reliably be infilled with something like copper powder.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 I might use this as an excuse to join you in a stiff drink, or even a slightly flaccid one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 so this is after clearcoating? when I did my magic marble swirl I think I shot a coat of shellac to separate the swirl from the nitro that I then painted on. (but I think the problem that I gon in scrap tests was that the nitro dissolved the swirl, not cracking) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StratsRdivine Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 If my idea below is crazy, its all Scotts fault - he got me thinking. If, and only if, you plan to keep the cracked "failure", you might have success "grouting" a clear, 100% solids resin into the finish, then sand it level (sand through is highly risky in this case), but the real issue is adhesion, so epoxy is out. I have had success with MEKP catalyzed acrylic cement. It cures with similar shrinkage as polyester resin but the solvents and its resin base will bond well to the coating you have on now, and is crystal clear. Then topcoat with your finish of choice. The real drawback is that you have to do all the fill coats AND your first topcoat within two to four hours of previous 2K acrylic fill coat (letting it cure for 1 hour) or else the solvents in each subsequent coat will micro-crack / craze the previous 2K acrylic fill layer (the 2K acrylic doesn't fully crosslink for about six to eight hours, so that is the application "window"). Whats nice about the 2K acrylic is that each subsequent coat solvent welds into itself. Clear PE resin might be a better choice for thick filling too, if it adheres to your crackle coating. Cheaper too. These are just far-fetched ideas - I have worked alot with 100% solids resins, but never filled over a textured swirl coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 6 hours ago, ScottR said: Leave those in there, put enough clear on it to level and call the paint job a crackle swirl and charge double for the hard to achieve special effect. SR Don't worry, Scott, that's something that I've already thought of. I'd call it the "Crackle Splat" finish. I'd charge double just to help pay for the multiple scotches I'd need to consume to calm my nerves afterwards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 6 hours ago, pan_kara said: so this is after clearcoating? when I did my magic marble swirl I think I shot a coat of shellac to separate the swirl from the nitro that I then painted on. (but I think the problem that I gon in scrap tests was that the nitro dissolved the swirl, not cracking) 6 hours ago, Prostheta said: Yikes, I had that exact same thing happen to me on my white Explorer when I clearcoated over the base colour. I'd like to know whether those cracks could reliably be infilled with something like copper powder.... It's obviously some kind of incompatibility between the swirling paints and the precat clear I've shot over it. That was one coat, and it turned ugly fast. I was spraying the body, rotating it as I went to cover all surfaces, and by the time I'd swung the body back around 360 degrees it had already celophaned. 30 seconds or less must have elapsed between starting to spray and the wrinkling. Serves me bloody right for not testing it first. Where the white undercoat shows through the clear has adhered perfectly, it's just the coloured sections that are wrecked. After I'd calmed down a bit I tried shooting some more clear over some of my test pieces that were swirled with generic enamels and they behaved exactly the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 3 hours ago, StratsRdivine said: If my idea below is crazy, its all Scotts fault - he got me thinking. If, and only if, you plan to keep the cracked "failure", you might have success "grouting" a clear, 100% solids resin into the finish, then sand it level (sand through is highly risky in this case), but the real issue is adhesion, so epoxy is out. I have had success with MEKP catalyzed acrylic cement. It cures with similar shrinkage as polyester resin but the solvents and its resin base will bond well to the coating you have on now, and is crystal clear. Then topcoat with your finish of choice. The real drawback is that you have to do all the fill coats AND your first topcoat within two to four hours of previous 2K acrylic fill coat (letting it cure for 1 hour) or else the solvents in each subsequent coat will micro-crack / craze the previous 2K acrylic fill layer (the 2K acrylic doesn't fully crosslink for about six to eight hours, so that is the application "window"). Whats nice about the 2K acrylic is that each subsequent coat solvent welds into itself. Clear PE resin might be a better choice for thick filling too, if it adheres to your crackle coating. Cheaper too. These are just far-fetched ideas - I have worked alot with 100% solids resins, but never filled over a textured swirl coat. Not sure I want to go through that kind of hassle with the guitar at this stage. At the very least I'm going to have to sand it back to re-prime anyway, so it may be a good excuse to see how all the wrinkled high spots look after they've been leveled. But the swirl layer is incredibly thin, so the risk is that I can very easily sand through and make things worse. I've got other, simpler ideas that I'm willing to give a go before I admit defeat and start afresh with a new body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StratsRdivine Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 hour ago, curtisa said: It's obviously some kind of incompatibility between the swirling paints and the precat clear I've shot over it. Where the white undercoat shows through the clear has adhered perfectly, it's just the coloured sections that are wrecked. After I'd calmed down a bit I tried shooting some more clear over some of my test pieces that were swirled with generic enamels and they behaved exactly the same. This is a real finishing conundrum. Not sure if the precat clear you used is "re-softening" your white undercoat to allow the shrinkage / crackling of the marbled enamels or if the marbles enamels are releasing off the white undercoat from solvent attack from your pre-cat clear overcoat (most likely case, because the marble enamels are less then 1 mil thick). Appears like you need to use a solvent isolator sealer after marbling. Which means using a true catalyzed sealer (I never trust pre-cats) over the marbled enamel, not a precat, and this sealer has to be high solids - can't have too much solvent. If you use a high-solvent clear, it needs to be "dusted" on so solvent does not attack. Then once cured, you can spray normal. If you had a high-crosslink sealer (2K urethane?) over the marbling that was dusted on, and let it cure well, then the solvents from your overcoat will not attack the bases. Need to think this through a bit, because its possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 I'm willing to bet it's the softening/shrinking of the swirling paints. Like I said, the white swirls on the original are where the swirling paints left gaps to reveal the undercoat, and the white undercoat hasn't been affected by the clear. I think the clear was just too aggressive and simply peeled back the weaker layer of paint. Either way. it's getting stripped. First stage is to see if it's worth salvaging as a crackle swirl. If it doesn't look right (or I start getting sand-throughs) it'll all get stripped and a more basic finish will be going on its place. Not going to go through the hassle of swirling a fourth time. It's high time this instrument was finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Natural Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Curtisa- You and I may be on opposite sides of the world but it appears we both have the finishing blues. I am on 5th sand back and I cant even bring myself to start sanding I am so ticked off. and frustrated. I am at the point of chilling out for a bit before I go all "pete townshend " on it. the weather here has turned off cold (below freezing) but will be a warm again in a few (70 degrees F) so if I can bring myself to sanding in the next couple days I may try again. feeling your pain bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted February 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Brothers in arms, it would seem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted February 18, 2017 Report Share Posted February 18, 2017 I saw a tin of 'wipe on poly' in one of the photos. Is that standard polyurethane varnish? I ask simply because I find the latter to be completely unreactive. When I used enamel for the Mouradian-style bass (and, by the way, I'm never going to use enamel again!) and it did this simply from the second coat of the same product (yes, quite...) I found that wipe on poly acted as a complete block to the reaction. Maybe use that after the swirl coat to 'fix' it and then clear spray over the poly? Or just clear coat with the poly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted February 18, 2017 Report Share Posted February 18, 2017 It seems that avoiding enamel is the key. Not that this helps @curtisa after the fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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