Silver Figured Maple

[DC Ross]

Hey all,

Trying to figure out how to get this silvery colour on figured maple. I'm assuming it's bleached, but this looks like it went a bit further than just bleaching.

Thanks,

-D

[ScottR]

Pure speculation, but my best guess is bleach, black sandback and white dye and a blue tinted burst. This is what I'd start with if I was going to try to re-create it. That is certainly a very hot look!

SR

[DC Ross]

Yeah, definitely bleach and dye black/sandback, but white dye? I've not heard of this...

[Norris]

Wow what a stunning finish!

[ScottR]

8 hours ago, DC Ross said:

Yeah, definitely bleach and dye black/sandback, but white dye? I've not heard of this...

Mr. Riddler says this was dyed with Transtint Olympic white.

I have not found it with a casual search, but apparently it exists.

SR

[Prostheta]

It does indeed. As far as I am aware, it has more opacity to it than other colours but works more or less the same. Bleaching reduces the natural contrast in Maple, especially the growth rings I believe. To get white though, that sort of "dye" is the way forward. I'm somewhat reticent to call it a dye as such....is it not more like a stain than anything else?

[ScottR]

I dunno. Transtint is typically dye. If the white collects in the pores instead of adding color to the fibers it would be more like a stain. The pictures here and in Mr. Riddler's thread look like the white is acting more like a dye. I tested normal stain on figured maple once years ago and the result is markedly different in appearance than what you get with dye. It was not white however and that may make a difference.
SR

[Prostheta]

That's more along the lines of what I was thinking too. I suspect that it'll be a solution of perhaps Titanium Dioxide? I see white in their Vivitone listing and the MSDS states TiO2. I don't see it in their TransTint product line either. I doubt that TiO2 is soluble, and would be more like a suspension or emulsion of sorts. That would put it closer to being a stain than a dye. Thoughts?

[Prostheta]

Other than asking @Mr_Riddler of course. 

[ScottR]

4 hours ago, Prostheta said:

That's more along the lines of what I was thinking too. I suspect that it'll be a solution of perhaps Titanium Dioxide? I see white in their Vivitone listing and the MSDS states TiO2. I don't see it in their TransTint product line either. I doubt that TiO2 is soluble, and would be more like a suspension or emulsion of sorts. That would put it closer to being a stain than a dye. Thoughts?

I suspect you are correct. It's hard to know without getting your hands on some.....short of asking someone that has of course.

SR

[Prostheta]

Last year I was playing around with some of Osmo's Wood Wax finishes:

http://www.osmouk.com/sitechaptern.cfm?bookid=Products&chapter=82&page=373#WoodWaxFinish

Their white was surprisingly transparent yet effective in drawing down the colour of the underlying substrate without obscuring contrast. Totally not what I was expecting from the product. I certainly don't think that would specifically be useful for instruments, however white can be more opaque than translucent yet achieve the same end. Essentially, stain (shorthand, "thinned paint") vs. dye (pigmented solution).

White finishes are fantastic when done well. I've seen some excellent ones achieved through experimentation on ordering, filling, etc. I'd like to see what comes of this when you start demo'ing products, @DC Ross.

[Prostheta]

Also, Finnish product. 

Don't want to go offtopic, but I was wondering whether this stuff might be a good hard oil/wax for instruments....Scott?

 

[DC Ross]

Thanks for the replys, guys!

I think I'll start testing by bleaching it as much as possible, which is something I've never done -- any recommended products?

If that doesn't seem to do enough, I've got some waterbased ColorTone that I'll try thinning down. Trying to think of the best order -- dye black, sandback, then stain w/ pigment?

[Prostheta]

From what I am aware - and this isn't a specific product recommendation as such - the best are the "two part" wood bleaches. I think a common product went out of production in the last few years, so you might find Google research turning up a lemon on a couple of fronts. I've never really needed to bleach wood so this is not my field. Still, you see the conversations surrounding it. It's out there and the two-part seems the stuff of winners.

[ScottR]

On 8/2/2016 at 3:48 PM, Prostheta said:

Also, Finnish product. 

Don't want to go offtopic, but I was wondering whether this stuff might be a good hard oil/wax for instruments....Scott?

 

That looks like intriguing stuff, especially for a satin or matte finish. How hard does it get?

On the other hand I'll be damned if I'd wipe that stuff on with a bleeding steel scraper after spending my normal amount of time sanding and polishing the wood, especially of the wood was as soft as redwood. The sound of that thing running across the grain as he turned at it at the end of each stroke set my teeth on edge. Lord knows how many fibers it was tearing. Plastic all the way for me.

SR

[MiKro]

Not sure if that is white? Looks somewhat like an experiment I tried using silver pearl on raw wood, maybe something like that or added to a white wash over the black sand back? Cool looking finish though however it was achieved?  

Just my 0.02cents worth 

mk

[Prostheta]

These white finishes have been coming to the market a lot recently. Unless the wood has the absolute balls bleached out of it - which is never good - it'll be a semi-opaque pigment wash like you say. This has always existed as a technique, but its only recently that I've seen people making it look good without lots of experience and experiments. Available product always helps.

Framus do a lot of these now, with a few in Devin Townsend's signature range:

 

 

....if you look at what we're seeing there, it's a translucent or simply "very thin" opaque layer over what seems to be a very cold sandback. The natural amber of the Maple is still evident. I wondering if there is a slight amount of blue in the white or the sandback to cool it down? Under certain lights you can see that it isn't what you would consider as being white. More like a light set of dirty greys.

[Prostheta]

The image in @DC Ross' opening post looks like it has been colour-corrected to hell and back by whoever made it. The blacks and saturation look unrealistic. I would highly doubt that the guitar looks like that first person, so I wouldn't hold it to the standard of being a working target. Your work is better than that anyway, such as your GOTM work.

The sheer level of product you'd be applying to get the contrast in addition to the white easily takes natural beauty away from the Maple. This is entirely why I never recommend solid black dye for sandbacks. It's just too coarse and heavy in pigments to work with the wood....it forces its arm and demands to plant its face on the hood.

[Prostheta]

Now this is a lot more realistic. The headstock shows a very cold grey (lack of) sandback and you can see the amber of the Maple peeking through. The sheer contrast of the first image is non-existent here.

Diamond Guitars look super-poor now in comparison to how they were when Dean Zelinsky was running the show.

 

[Mr_Riddler]

On 2016-08-02 at 5:53 PM, Prostheta said:

Other than asking @Mr_Riddler of course. 

Well what I did was dyed the maple black and sanded it back. When spraying the white I mixed about 1/5 Olympic white with clear and sprayed very thin layers.

[Prostheta]

I pretty much thought that was the case. White is a difficult colour to get translucency in....it's one of those schedules that is more or less guaranteed to lose all chatoyancy within the figure in addition to being difficult to nail anyway.

[Mr_Riddler]

Agree on that if you spray a little to thick at any point the color will just turn plain white directly.