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2 weeks of Tru-Oil coats to fill the Wenge pores/grain and we're almost there (custom 6-string KM-I carve-top)…

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Started work on this next build today, which makes use of this stunning Ziricote top and Macassar Ebony fretboard blank. The guitar itself will be the first Kemp Guitars DC and defines what we are about - natural woods and minimal features. Watch this space!

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this tru-oil finish of yours comes out super nice. Do you have any trick for that? Is it just one coat per day wipe on-remove instantly or something else? Do you buff it afterwards? I did I think 2 guitars in full tru-oil but I still have a lot of room for improvement..

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18 hours ago, Prostheta said:

Wow, same source for that Ziricote?!

Hi Prostheta. That Ziricote top was ordered in from the US a couple of months ago (from eBay, of all places). Very nice but not as thick as I'd usually like so I'll be rounding over the edge of this DC. I can't remember the seller's ID but search for Ziricote tops and there should be quite a few results from the same place.

 

48 minutes ago, pan_kara said:

this tru-oil finish of yours comes out super nice. Do you have any trick for that? Is it just one coat per day wipe on-remove instantly or something else? Do you buff it afterwards? I did I think 2 guitars in full tru-oil but I still have a lot of room for improvement..

Thanks pan_kara. As it looks in my last post, there was about 16 coats (applied 12-24 hours apart). Every four or five coats, I wet sand back with thinned Tru-Oil and 800 grit paper. It takes quite a bit away but the Wenge pores can be quite deep and we're going for the full pore fill on this one. When applying coats, I wipe on wet but not enough to drip and then just work it into the pores/grain in a circular motion and then repeat following the grain just to the point that you can see the wet streaks but, again, not dripping. It's not finished yet but after the final wet sand, I'll start using thinned down Tru-Oil for smoother, glossier coats. I hope this helps... And makes sense :)

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Thanks for the explanation! So for the "initial" (10-20) coats you don't actually wipe them off at the end? You just leave the last wet streaks to dry before the next coat?

Everybody seems to be recommending the opposite (wiping off after application) but then the build is very slow. Ont the other hand not wiping off tends to produce wipe marks that are hard to get out, or become gummy when I try to sand them flat later on ...

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1 hour ago, pan_kara said:

Thanks for the explanation! So for the "initial" (10-20) coats you don't actually wipe them off at the end? You just leave the last wet streaks to dry before the next coat?

Everybody seems to be recommending the opposite (wiping off after application) but then the build is very slow. Ont the other hand not wiping off tends to produce wipe marks that are hard to get out, or become gummy when I try to sand them flat later on ...

I think everyone has their own way of doing it... You look on YouTube, for example, and you come away still asking yourself what's the right way.

Initial coats are not wiped off, no. The trick is to keep it as wet as possible so that you see the streaks but don't feel them when that coat dries. I would leave usually 12 hours between coats, but you can get away with 6 hours if it's weather like we're having now (mild/warm).

When sanding, I leave it 24 hours since the last coat and use thinned out Tru-Oil (50:50 with spirits) and a light wet&dry paper (at least 800 grit)... This will prevent the gummy mess you've experienced.

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1 hour ago, KempGuitars said:

When sanding, I leave it 24 hours since the last coat and use thinned out Tru-Oil (50:50 with spirits) and a light wet&dry paper (at least 800 grit)... This will prevent the gummy mess you've experienced.

that is a great tip. I noticed with the teak oil I am using on my project that I was getting a considerable amount of "hardened oil" clogging the (400 grit) paper I was using- perhaps I should be using a lower grit- and perhaps the addition of mineral spirits to thin it out may help as well. I had to be careful as that hardened oil on the paper was introducing scratches- also- my pressure on the paper may have been too much- I tend to muscle things to much when a bit of finesse is required

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3 hours ago, KempGuitars said:

I think everyone has their own way of doing it... You look on YouTube, for example, and you come away still asking yourself what's the right way.

Initial coats are not wiped off, no. The trick is to keep it as wet as possible so that you see the streaks but don't feel them when that coat dries. I would leave usually 12 hours between coats, but you can get away with 6 hours if it's weather like we're having now (mild/warm).

When sanding, I leave it 24 hours since the last coat and use thinned out Tru-Oil (50:50 with spirits) and a light wet&dry paper (at least 800 grit)... This will prevent the gummy mess you've experienced.

 

That's exactly it, and I agree that the huge number of personal methods described out in the wild serve mostly to muddy the waters. I think an overall methodology of what to aim for and what not to do is probably better than some "one single way". Simple oil and wax finishes seldom have one way anyway.

My own method differs in the initial flood coat, which you don't wipe off. I do. However, I watch the oil for an hour or two on the initial flood to see which areas are still sucking up the oil, and squeegee or apply some around that area. After that couple of hours, I wipe everything off until the surface of the wood is lightly oily-feeling and not wet. That's left to dry as it will, with an inspection every few hours to check for oil leaking out from anywhere, and to give it a quick wipe. Then comes a wet sand with oil to raise a slurry if needs be, and subsequently just light wipes to build a sheen.

I don't think it's easy to go wrong with Tru-Oil. All apart from trying to work it when it gets gummy, or letting it corn out your sandpaper like you've been getting, @Mr Natural. That sanded debris needs to go somewhere, and it likes to stick to itself, so it corns up. The same happens removing wax (I do this at work when making transparent two-stage wax finishes, a bit like a sandback....kills your abrasives) or if you need to sand shellac.

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On 5/24/2017 at 2:46 PM, Mr Natural said:

that is a great tip. I noticed with the teak oil I am using on my project that I was getting a considerable amount of "hardened oil" clogging the (400 grit) paper I was using- perhaps I should be using a lower grit- and perhaps the addition of mineral spirits to thin it out may help as well. I had to be careful as that hardened oil on the paper was introducing scratches- also- my pressure on the paper may have been too much- I tend to muscle things to much when a bit of finesse is required

Don't worry, I've been there. Endless amounts of sandpaper wasted due to it clogging. I first used straight spirits but it started to evaporate/flash too quick. Using thinned out oil works perfectly... And also, as Prostheta mentions below, provides a great method for pore filling.

 

On 5/24/2017 at 3:13 PM, mattharris75 said:

Truly, you are a Tru Oil master.

I've used it to finish a number of instruments, and it's always come out pretty well, but not without some fussing. So it's nice to get some tips and tricks from someone who clearly has had a lot of success with it. Thanks!

Thanks mattharris75... Although I don't know about the "master" bit. The Wenge top is becoming a bit of a challenge as I approach the final coats. I've never done the full gloss and pore fill together with Tru-Oil so I'm going to take the finishing coats easy. I'll post photos as soon as that one's finished.

 

On 5/24/2017 at 4:45 PM, Prostheta said:

 

That's exactly it, and I agree that the huge number of personal methods described out in the wild serve mostly to muddy the waters. I think an overall methodology of what to aim for and what not to do is probably better than some "one single way". Simple oil and wax finishes seldom have one way anyway.

My own method differs in the initial flood coat, which you don't wipe off. I do. However, I watch the oil for an hour or two on the initial flood to see which areas are still sucking up the oil, and squeegee or apply some around that area. After that couple of hours, I wipe everything off until the surface of the wood is lightly oily-feeling and not wet. That's left to dry as it will, with an inspection every few hours to check for oil leaking out from anywhere, and to give it a quick wipe. Then comes a wet sand with oil to raise a slurry if needs be, and subsequently just light wipes to build a sheen.

I don't think it's easy to go wrong with Tru-Oil. All apart from trying to work it when it gets gummy, or letting it corn out your sandpaper like you've been getting, @Mr Natural. That sanded debris needs to go somewhere, and it likes to stick to itself, so it corns up. The same happens removing wax (I do this at work when making transparent two-stage wax finishes, a bit like a sandback....kills your abrasives) or if you need to sand shellac.

Nice addition to this discussion, thanks Prostheta... And your method is the way I like to do my own builds. I prefer the more organic/natural/open pore look and this way works perfectly for that - obviously leaving out the wet sanding/slurry part 😃

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Definitely so. I've always gone into oil finishes with the objective of providing a sealing base, hence the flooding. Hit the porous areas with as much oil as they'll take and then let it polymerise and lock up the surface. I don't use Tru-Oil myself these days. I prefer raw oils, but have been using Osmo PolyX a lot ("öljyvaha" here). #3032 satin and #3062 matte are fantastic on raw woods, and are super easy to use. I've decided that the 5-string build for season one will be an oil finish using those. They blend really nicely to transition finishes between the body and neck. A little more expensive than Tru-Oil by volume, but not (as) flammable on rags (I hope everybody is wetting them and leaving rags outside flat!) and even friendlier. It doesn't amber out as anywhere near as much either....it's more like safflower than flax seed in colour.

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2 hours ago, Prostheta said:

Definitely so. I've always gone into oil finishes with the objective of providing a sealing base, hence the flooding. Hit the porous areas with as much oil as they'll take and then let it polymerise and lock up the surface. I don't use Tru-Oil myself these days. I prefer raw oils, but have been using Osmo PolyX a lot ("öljyvaha" here). #3032 satin and #3062 matte are fantastic on raw woods, and are super easy to use. I've decided that the 5-string build for season one will be an oil finish using those. They blend really nicely to transition finishes between the body and neck. A little more expensive than Tru-Oil by volume, but not (as) flammable on rags (I hope everybody is wetting them and leaving rags outside flat!) and even friendlier. It doesn't amber out as anywhere near as much either....it's more like safflower than flax seed in colour.

Thanks for the info on the Osmo products. I've just been reading up on the range and I might give it a go. Actually works out cheaper than Tru-Oil for me, although that's irrelevant when producing a fine finish on an expensive instrument made to order, but thinking about the durability and refinishing, etc.

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It's quite different to Tru-Oil, as that builds up a surface finish. It's a lot easier to maintain though. Do some tests. It prefers lower-grit sanding (150-180 rec.) However they also have an extra thin version for exotics which are sanded higher. Finer-finished surfaces can be more difficult to wet and it has a reasonable surface tension.

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This is the matte oil straight onto Sapele at 320 grit. Flooded, distributed and then wiped off within the hour. Done. This is not how Osmo recommend the oil's usage though, however since it's a flooring finish we don't have the luxury of gravity and simple flat surfaces to work with. The oil is very happy being given multiple additional wipes and being left to dry. Very very natural and raw feeling, but enough protection to take it out of that "unprotected raw wood" bracket. I'm tempted to see how it would fare on a Maple fingerboard also.

As mentioned, really fast feeling and perfect for the back of a neck.

IMG_8866.JPG

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I felt motivated to sand up a scrap of Maple up to 400 grit and apply some of the Osmo silk finish oil to see how it protects it and what kind of look it imparts. If this is attractive enough, I might be tempted to make the multiscale Tele for the season one build an oiled Maple board....

Those tins are about €15-16 here, so maybe £13? For 125ml I can't remember how that stacks up against Tru-Oil, however I suspect it is broadly similar for the small amounts we use on instruments. 2,5l (we go through a lot of this at work) is about €94.

IMG_8870.JPG

 

About thirty minutes or so later I wiped the excess off. This can be left to dry as-is if needs be. It's a hot day today in Finland so it's setting up a lot faster than usual.

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I was lazy with the end grain.

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54 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

I felt motivated to sand up a scrap of Maple up to 400 grit and apply some of the Osmo silk finish oil to see how it protects it and what kind of look it imparts. If this is attractive enough, I might be tempted to make the multiscale Tele for the season one build an oiled Maple board....

Those tins are about €15-16 here, so maybe £13? For 125ml I can't remember how that stacks up against Tru-Oil, however I suspect it is broadly similar for the small amounts we use on instruments. 2,5l (we go through a lot of this at work) is about €94.

IMG_8870.JPG

 

About thirty minutes or so later I wiped the excess off. This can be left to dry as-is if needs be. It's a hot day today in Finland so it's setting up a lot faster than usual.

IMG_8871.JPG

IMG_8873.JPG

 

I was lazy with the end grain.

IMG_8872.JPG

Thank you for uploading those photos. It's always better to see these things in person, but the finish on that Maple with just one coat looks very nice. Looking at prices for the Osmo products here, I found 750ml for just under £25 which is very good compared to Tru-Oil which is around £15 for less than 250ml.

I've used Tru-Oil as a Maple fretboard finish and there's been no issue. As a product suitable for flooring, I'd say you'd have no issue finishing a fretboard with Osmo.

:)

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You're welcome, and sharing always helps refine techniques and knowledge. Like I mentioned, I think that the Osmo Poly-X is more difficult to build up into a thicker film like Tru-Oil, but its even more foolproof if there is such a thing. For repairs, it just needs a quick sanding or scuffing and new oil bonds and blends with old like a charm.

I do think that the feel of a wax/oil product is key. Some feel tacky and "slow", especially the glossier ones. Scuffing them helps, but seems a little like a backwards step. Satin is definitely more of a looker for a fingerboard. I have this on stock right now and I think it should be ideal (little damp with water):

16326253_10155097736115676_2145440132_o.jpg

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13 hours ago, Prostheta said:

You're welcome, and sharing always helps refine techniques and knowledge. Like I mentioned, I think that the Osmo Poly-X is more difficult to build up into a thicker film like Tru-Oil, but its even more foolproof if there is such a thing. For repairs, it just needs a quick sanding or scuffing and new oil bonds and blends with old like a charm.

I do think that the feel of a wax/oil product is key. Some feel tacky and "slow", especially the glossier ones. Scuffing them helps, but seems a little like a backwards step. Satin is definitely more of a looker for a fingerboard. I have this on stock right now and I think it should be ideal (little damp with water):

16326253_10155097736115676_2145440132_o.jpg

That will look very nice with a satin finish... Not into the glossy fretboard look myself either - whether it's high gloss Poly (Maple) or high polished (Ebony, etc).

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thanks guys, tons of useful info here.

I guess I'll have to experiment more next time. I do the "wetsand with truoil" trick usually, typically when I'm doing fingerboards I do a single flood coat and then the next coats are applied with P600-P800-P1000. All of them wiped off - I'm not sure whether the wipe-off doesn't remove most of the slurry that was supposed to do the pore filling... but in any case I'm not trying to pore-fill fingerboards so I don't worry.

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That all depends on how you wipe it off. If you go with the grain, you are more likely to pull the slurry out from the pores. Going against it is better. The same applies when ragging off pore filler.

@KempGuitars - a satin finish is preferred in my book also. Gloss is slow and tacky. I know we won't tend to contact the board as much as the back of the neck, but it still happens.

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That Ziricote top now glued to a Sapele body, shaped and edges rounded over (going for traditional styling with this one). Neck is also Sapele (three-piece) with Ziricote headstock veneer.

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