Operation Shoestring

[curtisa]

I guess a quick review of some of the cheap components used in this build is probably in order.

Can't say anything overly negative about the Chinese trussrods. They've actually changed the design of them in the last few months, so you no longer get a knock-off of the LMII/Allied/Allparts dual action types  (two contra-threaded blocks at each end, with the rod being turned by a nut welded at one end). These new ones have the rod welded in place to the far end of the flat bar, and the nut is threaded on to the opposite end of the rod. The nut then sits loosely inside a stainless steel tube which is then welded to the flat section of the rod. Turning the nut clockwise threads the nut onto the rod and causes the two ends of the rod to be drawn towards each other (backbow), same as a single acting rod. Turning the nut anticlockwise forces the nut to come into contact with a lip inside the stainless steel cyclinder, which in response forces the two ends of the rod to try and expand further apart from each other (forward bow). It's actually a pretty neat system that reduces the chances of (what I understand to be) the most common form of failure in the LMII/Allied/Allparts style dual action rod - shearing the welded nut off the end of the rod by over-tightening. With all the moving parts sealed inside the steel cylinder there's also no longer a risk that glue ingress when attaching the fretboard will foul up the adjustment action. The only negative thing I can see is that the stainless steel cyclinder/end cap requires more meat to be removed from the neck to fit it in the channel. The cylinder in these rods is 9mm diameter x 11mm deep, although the rod itself is still 1/4" wide. I bought 8 in one batch, and they all stress-test fine, including the one that's now in the neck of this build.

The two Irongear pickups used do sound good for the money, and I'd be willing to take a chance on some different models when the opportunity arises. With the Rolling Mill (neck) and Hot Slag (bridge) being sold as a set I would've preferred that the RM was slightly hotter to match the HS, as I feel like the RM is a bit undercooked in comparison, but that's just my preference. I can see that some people may prefer a neck pickup with a bit less drive for certain styles of music. I note that Irongear do sell a hotter-wound version of the RM, so maybe that would've been a better match for the HS. Mechanically and physically there's nothing bad to say about them.

The bridge and headpiece is a bit of mixed bag. On the plus side the nut is fully adjustable and the precut slots are clean and square, so setup at this end of the guitar is a doddle. The bridge is free from any annoying rattles or buzzes and there's bags of adjustment range for action and intonation. Each saddle can be locked down after adjusting so it can't wiggle out of alignment. There's a fair bit of mass in the bridge, and everything being well-coupled to each other means that it sounds quite good and sustains well.

The metal casting is a bit rough in places and the black plating is a bit hit and miss. The tuning mechanism seems like a good idea in theory, and could be made better with some redesign, but has a few foibles to deal with in practice. The gearing ratio is a bit too low to allow tuning by hand on the wound strings without the assistance of the included mini allen wrench. Plain strings can be tuned without the aid of the wrench. The tuning thumbscrews are just a hair too large in diameter, each one rubbing against the adjacent ones when turned (some of the black plating is already wearing off a couple of the thumbweels). In order to maintain sufficient downward pressure over the saddles each string needs to be underslung on the tuning spool, meaning that the thumbweels need to be turned anticlockwise for the pitch to be increased. A reverse cut thread on the wormgears would be ideal to maintain lefty loosey/righty tighty rule. Stringing up is a bit fiddly, as there isn't an awful lot of room to get the string wrapped onto the spool, but once they're on there's no issues with tuning drifting other than what you'd expect under normal abuse. The back of the headpiece is pre-shaped with a nominal neck profile, so you're kinda stuck with the shape of the neck at the nut (not in itself a bad thing, as the resultant shape is quite comfortable). And it only comes in black.

[Prostheta]

I think that's a great subject for conversation in an article of sorts, Andrew. I mean, a while back it might have looked very differently and there are certainly still very many trashy parts originating from Asia in addition to the far more passable ones. Point in case is Wilkinson hardware. Some is still very much lower rung stuff, however aside from "gold" plating on their tuners, I've found them very usable.

Truss rods are perhaps where I would disagree. I could not give 100% trust in anything so critical unless I had assurances of quality by source. This is where I think any sort of investment beyond the cheap aspect is worthwhile. Everything external can be serviced, replaced and maintained. A stripped truss rod is dead in the water. The welds might be good, the rod(s) might be strong and true, however cheese grade metal or a crappily-threaded end that falls apart is the weakest link.

To flip viewpoint, a lot of people only have those options and generally they're a nice affordable way to get up onto the ladder. At least we have those options, and only 10-15 years ago this simply didn't exist. A trawl through the early threads here on PG show a lot of people either bought expensive because that was all that was available (like awfully clumsy StewMac hot rods....I bought them myself....) or the more capable sorts made their own.

Choice is what it comes down to. Having that availability of choice gives a lot of people a lot of entry points into making instruments easily, affordably and for the most part reliably now.

[curtisa]

40 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

I think that's a great subject for conversation in an article of sorts, Andrew. I mean, a while back it might have looked very differently and there are certainly still very many trashy parts originating from Asia in addition to the far more passable ones. Point in case is Wilkinson hardware. Some is still very much lower rung stuff, however aside from "gold" plating on their tuners, I've found them very usable.

No doubt there's still an abundance of the cheap and nasty stuff, but I think the gap has been gradually closing for a while now. On a purely cosmetic level, the headless bridge and nut on this build isn't going to win any awards. But aside for the tuning gear ratios and the bass-ackwards rotation of the tuning knobs, it's surprisingly decent for $60 plus shipping. I guess only time will tell if it stands up to years of (ab)use. Chances are you get what you pay for, but at this stage I'm surprised exactly what I got for the money.

 

51 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

Truss rods are perhaps where I would disagree. I could not give 100% trust in anything so critical unless I had assurances of quality by source. This is where I think any sort of investment beyond the cheap aspect is worthwhile. Everything external can be serviced, replaced and maintained. A stripped truss rod is dead in the water. The welds might be good, the rod(s) might be strong and true, however cheese grade metal or a crappily-threaded end that falls apart is the weakest link.

Although I stress-tested each of the rods in the batch I bought, I suppose there's still a possibility that the act of stress testing has weakened the rod, which may fail when used in practice. Another case of suck it and see.

I did try and research the use of the Cheap Truss Rods of Dubious Lineage before taking the plunge. It was surprisingly difficult to find anyone saying that they'd used them and had a failure. Lots of people said they wouldn't use them in the first place based on origin alone. A handfull of people said they'd used them and hadn't had an issue. The more common story appears to be that they'd bought a StewMac or LMII rod, had a failure and were adamant that they'd never give those companies their money again.

[Prostheta]

I've really started to prefer using soft brass adjustment nuts now. Even if the steel in the rod is proper cheese grade, at least the adjuster will strip before the rod does. The worst kind are those with a welded-on rod, however that's just part of the territory when it comes to the two-way sort.

Almost all rods are prone to failure, and I think it's up to the user to do a reasonable stress test prior to installation. I might start brazing my own, and have meant to detail a few ways of making the most common rods DIY style. Thing is, the skill is difficult to learn, and harder to teach when it comes to brazing. Anybody can stick two pieces together, but to get a truly durable weld is the difficulty. I couldn't say that I'm any sort of master. I just know that it's the way to go if you want to cut out weak links.

Incidentally, brass hex rod is hella cheap. If you can reliably centre drill and tap it, it's a hugely economical source of your own adjustment nuts. Chuck it up in a drill and file the taper ;-)

[Andyjr1515]

On 5 March 2017 at 6:09 AM, curtisa said:

That's a wrap:

 

Obligatory noise file:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/azvlosqnitfkbho/Shoestring Test.mp3?dl=0

 

Hi, Andrew

 

I've been a bit distracted in the past week but have kept meaning to congratulate you on a very, very well deserved win of GOTM

It's a stunning build.  Great job - top notch  

[curtisa]

Thanks Andy, although it's worth noting that the voting was as close as you can get between the entrants. Very stiff competition this month.

[ScottR]

Let me add my congratulations as well. And I agree, there could easily have been three winners this time.....and very nearly was.

SR

[harmee45]

On 3/6/2017 at 2:04 PM, curtisa said:

I guess a quick review of some of the cheap components used in this build is probably in order.

Can't say anything overly negative about the Chinese trussrods. They've actually changed the design of them in the last few months, so you no longer get a knock-off of the LMII/Allied/Allparts dual action types  (two contra-threaded blocks at each end, with the rod being turned by a nut welded at one end). These new ones have the rod welded in place to the far end of the flat bar, and the nut is threaded on to the opposite end of the rod. The nut then sits loosely inside a stainless steel tube which is then welded to the flat section of the rod. Turning the nut clockwise threads the nut onto the rod and causes the two ends of the rod to be drawn towards each other (backbow), same as a single acting rod. Turning the nut anticlockwise forces the nut to come into contact with a lip inside the stainless steel cyclinder, which in response forces the two ends of the rod to try and expand further apart from each other (forward bow). It's actually a pretty neat system that reduces the chances of (what I understand to be) the most common form of failure in the LMII/Allied/Allparts style dual action rod - shearing the welded nut off the end of the rod by over-tightening. With all the moving parts sealed inside the steel cylinder there's also no longer a risk that glue ingress when attaching the fretboard will foul up the adjustment action. The only negative thing I can see is that the stainless steel cyclinder/end cap requires more meat to be removed from the neck to fit it in the channel. The cylinder in these rods is 9mm diameter x 11mm deep, although the rod itself is still 1/4" wide. I bought 8 in one batch, and they all stress-test fine, including the one that's now in the neck of this build.

The two Irongear pickups used do sound good for the money, and I'd be willing to take a chance on some different models when the opportunity arises. With the Rolling Mill (neck) and Hot Slag (bridge) being sold as a set I would've preferred that the RM was slightly hotter to match the HS, as I feel like the RM is a bit undercooked in comparison, but that's just my preference. I can see that some people may prefer a neck pickup with a bit less drive for certain styles of music. I note that Irongear do sell a hotter-wound version of the RM, so maybe that would've been a better match for the HS. Mechanically and physically there's nothing bad to say about them.

The bridge and headpiece is a bit of mixed bag. On the plus side the nut is fully adjustable and the precut slots are clean and square, so setup at this end of the guitar is a doddle. The bridge is free from any annoying rattles or buzzes and there's bags of adjustment range for action and intonation. Each saddle can be locked down after adjusting so it can't wiggle out of alignment. There's a fair bit of mass in the bridge, and everything being well-coupled to each other means that it sounds quite good and sustains well.

The metal casting is a bit rough in places and the black plating is a bit hit and miss. The tuning mechanism seems like a good idea in theory, and could be made better with some redesign, but has a few foibles to deal with in practice. The gearing ratio is a bit too low to allow tuning by hand on the wound strings without the assistance of the included mini allen wrench. Plain strings can be tuned without the aid of the wrench. The tuning thumbscrews are just a hair too large in diameter, each one rubbing against the adjacent ones when turned (some of the black plating is already wearing off a couple of the thumbweels). In order to maintain sufficient downward pressure over the saddles each string needs to be underslung on the tuning spool, meaning that the thumbweels need to be turned anticlockwise for the pitch to be increased. A reverse cut thread on the wormgears would be ideal to maintain lefty loosey/righty tighty rule. Stringing up is a bit fiddly, as there isn't an awful lot of room to get the string wrapped onto the spool, but once they're on there's no issues with tuning drifting other than what you'd expect under normal abuse. The back of the headpiece is pre-shaped with a nominal neck profile, so you're kinda stuck with the shape of the neck at the nut (not in itself a bad thing, as the resultant shape is quite comfortable). And it only comes in black.

Hi Andrew, very glad to have stumbled across your post. I live in Hong Kong and recently had the opportunity to purchase a Chinese made "homage", let's say, to a certain Strandberg. It uses the same KD bridge and headstock design but I am having a ton of trouble getting it to work. Whatever I do the action is way too high and I've ended up stripping the saddle screws. Given up at this point and will take it to a tech to see what he can do. To me looks like it needs a thick shim. 

 

What are your thoughts down the line of the bridge/guitar in general? How easy is it to use/string/tune etc? 

[curtisa]

I assume you're referring to my thoughts on the bridge that ended up in this guitar? Overall, my opinion hasn't changed (as per write-up, above) - It's OK provided you work within its limitations.

I will say that the bridge is tall and the design of it dictates that some efforts are made to ensure that string action remains reasonable. I recessed the bridge into the guitar top by 2mm or so to maximise the amount of adjustability of the action, but probably could have gone to 3mm. Any lower and the pop-out tuning wrench will jam on the edge of the recess. I may have added a tapered shim to the neck pocket, but I can't remember.

If you're building something with this bridge, treat it as you would a tune-o-matic tailpiece - you'll either need to recess it, add neck angle, shim the neck upwards, or any combination of the three to get it to give reasonable string action.

[Goodkingzog]

Hey @curtisa, if you forward to 7 minutes in, you'll see what the drawer in the headpiece is for

 

[Prostheta]

Hah! Very very cools

[curtisa]

Headpiece looks slightly different. There's an ALP logo stamped into the top and the 'Licensed by KD Patent' stamp has been replaced by 'Advanced Live Performance'. The locking nut replaces the retainer bar on mine, and the ballend of the strings appears to be top-loading rather than fed through the rear face of the headpiece. I kinda figured the little drawer was for guitar picks, but the drawer in that video appears to have some kind of metal spring retainer clip to keep the picks in place that mine doesn't have.

Other than that, it's just the trem version of the fixed bridge used on my build. They're about $70 on Ebay. I guess whoever this ALP crowd are, they've just bought or manufactured a bunch of these bridges and done a custom run on the headpiece.

Interesting find

[Ethereal Guitars]

I've really enjoyed reading through this build story and being an Aussie builder myself, love the use of Tassie Oak for the body, Blackwood for the top and gun effort for using Merbau for the FB!  A unique build and it all came together beautifully.  Great job 

[curtisa]

Cheers Jon. And welcome (back) to Project Guitar.

[gustavorojas616]

Hi, nice guitar, is the bridge made of zinc alloy? stainless steel? aluminum? brass? thanks

[curtisa]

Bridge looks to be made of copper, or at least a copper-plated non-ferrous alloy of some kind.

[SimonMMason]

HI Curtisa. First may I congratulate you on wonderful looking guitar. Truly beautiful to look at. If it plays as good as it looks, any guitarist would be very happy.

I came across this forum as I was looking for information on the bridge. I bought one recently to fit on my project, but there was no instruction manual on how to use or fit it. Thanks to your teardown, you have saved me hours of headaches in trying to figure it all out. My skills at guitar building are several orders of magnitude below yours, but I'm really enjoying riding the learning curve.

So thanks again, and now at least I've got somewhere to go I have any questions.

Simon.

[curtisa]

Thanks for the kind words, Simon. Good to hear you've taken the plunge with this weird bridge system.