want to get feet wet... looking for recommendations

[MiKro]

So here is a test of the laser at work., It is slow compared to a Co2 laser but it will get the job done I need for a while. I can only run it at about 80ipm to get this result.

update: I have to get some safety screens up. Forgetting to put the glasses on can mess your eyes up quick. LOL

MK

 

[curtisa]

Another couple of tests to try.

Run the 'Diagonal test 0_5 inch' file 4 or 5 times and verify the cutter always ends at X0, Y0. Repeat the same process with the 'Diagonal test 0_04 inch' file and check again.

Diagonal test 0_04 inch.rtf Diagonal test 0_5 inch.rtf

[mistermikev]

17 hours ago, curtisa said:

Another couple of tests to try.

Run the 'Diagonal test 0_5 inch' file 4 or 5 times and verify the cutter always ends at X0, Y0. Repeat the same process with the 'Diagonal test 0_04 inch' file and check again.

Diagonal test 0_04 inch.rtf 504 B · 0 downloads Diagonal test 0_5 inch.rtf 502 B · 0 downloads

roger that.  will do.  was thinking of creating a test... where I try different angles... because I suspect it's the very fine movements that are the problem.  45 deg doesn't seem to pose an issue... my guess is I'd have to try some 5, 2.5 and 1 deg angles and see what shakes.  anywho, I will go run these asap.  thanks again for the continued help!!

[mistermikev]

well, ran them 5 times each and go to z after 5 times each... looks pretty spot on to me.  I have a very fine crosshair indicating my zero and I set zero by eye before running (I removed my workpiece finally)... if it is off by any amount it is def not discernable by eye!

[mistermikev]

further, last night I ran a new prog to create a shelf for my pc to sit on with a bunch of slots throughout for airflow... ran it like a champ.  no staggered edges... everything is perfect.  again, that is all square.  I used the sm post process that I used for the neck pocket.  No issues.

[mistermikev]

so... had set my machine coords, calibrated my x and y and saved the fixture... often when i do this and close out and come back to mach3 mill... my machine is rendered unable to move.  just gives a terrible whine from the motors when you try to jog it.  it's infuriating.  Then you have to replace the .xml file to get things back working... and this resets all the calibration and machine coords I just set.  Mach3 works fine after these procedures and only bugs out when you re-open it.  I'm sure that's a feature.  The "if you want your machine to just scream and not move" feature.

that said... I wrote a program to test slight angles and sure enough... breaks it every time.  just a simple one pass around a triangle with slight angles and x is off.  y seems to maintain.  if my understanding is correct... those little commands that would keep the spindle moving at an angle probably are very small bursts of electricity.  Those would be more susceptible to emi.  I'm hoping anyway.  Perhaps the replacing of the cables will fix some of that.

as I understand, I will want to run an actual ground wire to the spindle.  currently, there are only 3 wires going to it... I think I can wire up the 4th prong to ground, and then on the spindle side I can wire that prong to a lug washer and place it on the mounting screws.  Should be getting the wire sometime this week... and a few remaining connectors I need. 

Next up: adventures in rewiring.

TEST_ANGLE_PRECISION.rtf

[curtisa]

So it's slow rates of stepping on X axis while Y axis is simultaneously doing fast rates of stepping, but only when X is traveling in the negative direction west beyond X=0? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

Based on your observations and my interpretation, when you run the code you've just attached you're seeing:

1. the cutter zip west in a straight line
2. gradually head north at a slight easterly angle
3. turn around and head due south
4. turn around and head due north <- incorrect motion at this point?
5. cutter zips back across to the origin and now X is too far east?

Step 4 of the above should be heading north at a slight westerly angle, but instead it only goes due north? And during step 4 are you seeing Mach3 update the X axis readout while it's making the move?

 

44 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

those little commands that would keep the spindle moving at an angle probably are very small bursts of electricity.  Those would be more susceptible to emi.  I'm hoping anyway.

The slower the movement of the axis the fewer pulses per second are being sent to it. The voltage/current waveforms being applied to the stepper motors should the same magnitude, but the rate at which they change will be different. They shouldn't be any more or less susceptible to interference whether you're stepping at 1IPM or 100IPM. Noise *could* be an issue perhaps, but it's got a funny way of influencing how the machine is being affected.

I'm more concerned that perhaps you've got a buggy copy of Mach3.

[mistermikev]

33 minutes ago, curtisa said:

So it's slow rates of stepping on X axis while Y axis is simultaneously doing fast rates of stepping, but only when X is traveling in the negative direction west beyond X=0? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

Based on your observations and my interpretation, when you run the code you've just attached you're seeing:

1. the cutter zip west in a straight line
2. gradually head north at a slight easterly angle
3. turn around and head due south
4. turn around and head due north <- incorrect motion at this point?
5. cutter zips back across to the origin and now X is too far east?

Step 4 of the above should be heading north at a slight westerly angle, but instead it only goes due north? And during step 4 are you seeing Mach3 update the X axis readout while it's making the move?

 

The slower the movement of the axis the fewer pulses per second are being sent to it. The voltage/current waveforms being applied to the stepper motors should the same magnitude, but the rate at which they change will be different. They shouldn't be any more or less susceptible to interference whether you're stepping at 1IPM or 100IPM. Noise *could* be an issue perhaps, but it's got a funny way of influencing how the machine is being affected.

I'm more concerned that perhaps you've got a buggy copy of Mach3.

between steps 3 and 4 there is a very slight angle... and I think it is here that is causing the issue... but admittedly I hadn't watched the coordinates while it was running.  Might have to try that.  that said... I ran this 3 or 4 times in a row, then did goToZero and we were off by about 1/4".  It does seem to move at an angle at step4.  It is hard to tell if it's moving at an angle for step 3 because it's so slight.

on my old machine I was using the copy of mach3 I got with the machine, but had licensed it legit thru mach3.  On the new machine (the one I tested this on) I had downloaded the latest version of mach3 and then licensed it.  So I doubt it's an issue with the version... and I suspect many people have been able to cut neck pockets using mach3.  I would think I would have heard others with this issue.

Maybe these stepper drivers have issues with very small movements?  Then it only seems like it's the x.  could be that that one driver has a bad chip and is missing steps.  I have heard of this issue for others.  I really need to pull the thing apart and figure out what drivers these are.  If I can get one cheap it'd be worth trying to replace it.  That said... I'm aware I could switch x/y axis and do another test... but I'm certain I get the sm result.  

[curtisa]

What about if write up a quick small program that just moves the X axis in small increments, with a pause between each move?

Psuedo code would read something like:

Quote

 

G1 X-0.02 F30 (move west to X-0.02" at 30IPM)

G4 P2 (pause 2 sec)

G1 X-0.04 (move X another 0.02"

G4 P2 (pause again)

... (repeat in 0.02" increments)

G1 X-1 (move to -1")

 

When the program ends measure the distance travelled and see if the total amount of movement adds up to 1 inch.

[mistermikev]

1 minute ago, curtisa said:

What about if write up a quick small program that just moves the X axis in small increments, with a pause between each move?

Psuedo code would read something like:

When the program ends measure the distance travelled and see if the total amount of movement adds up to 1 inch.

I would certainly be willing to try that - you've done so much so far - don't know how I'll ever repay.  I know I know... "someday I might ask you for a little favor..." hehe.  that said, I don't think x movement by itself is the issue.  it seems to be x only in combo with y... but I could be wrong, would love to know.

was thinking... I have a 4th axis... in theory, if I get the gumption... I could swap the drive board between x and a.  doubt I'll ever use the a axis anyway... but I'd be taking a chance at bringing the whole thing down by jacking around with it.  have to think on it some more.  the prospect of being up and running is very tempting.

[curtisa]

I had forgotten you'd stumped up for the extra axis on your machine. Certainly worth a shot if it's easy to reconfigure A axis driver as X.

[mistermikev]

1 minute ago, curtisa said:

I had forgotten you'd stumped up for the extra axis on your machine. Certainly worth a shot if it's easy to reconfigure A axis driver as X.

I mean I would physically swap them as opposed to reconfigure in mach3 .  

[curtisa]

Same difference, I knew what you meant and you knew what you meant  

 

[MiKro]

12 hours ago, mistermikev said:

I mean I would physically swap them as opposed to reconfigure in mach3 .  

Mike in this picture I can barely see the dip switches. It appears that on two of them DIP 5 is on and the other it is not? Also what micro steps are you running and what is your accleration? Whan I have had an issue with the type of movement you describe it was usually the acceleration that was a problem. I am still concerned about the dips though? On most drivers DIP 4 or maybe 5  (???  been awhile) is normally used to to half the power at idle.

also would like to see all of the wiring to the drivers? Are you using wiring to the enable connectors on the drivers as well? Most do not use this as the 5VDC for pulse and direction is all that is needed.. Or is the small connector that has the Black, Red, Yellow to the Pulse and direction?

Also what drivers are they specifically? If they are the TB6600 then many have had issues with them.

 

These are the drivers I use.

https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/kl-stepper-drivers/kl5056

 

[mistermikev]

47 minutes ago, MiKro said:

Mike in this picture I can barely see the dip switches. It appears that on two of them DIP 5 is on and the other it is not? Also what micro steps are you running and what is your accleration? Whan I have had an issue with the type of movement you describe it was usually the acceleration that was a problem. I am still concerned about the dips though? On most drivers DIP 4 or maybe 5  (???  been awhile) is normally used to to half the power at idle.

also would like to see all of the wiring to the drivers? Are you using wiring to the enable connectors on the drivers as well? Most do not use this as the 5VDC for pulse and direction is all that is needed.. Or is the small connector that has the Black, Red, Yellow to the Pulse and direction?

Also what drivers are they specifically? If they are the TB6600 then many have had issues with them.

 

These are the drivers I use.

https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/kl-stepper-drivers/kl5056

 

thanks for the chime in @mikro. 

 

I believe these are the "crappy little brother" to the 6600 ie the 6560.

the dips: this machine does have a slightly dif (smaller) motor for the z axis.  I think I read that the dip switches are set dif on this drive and possibly the A drive too? 

 

Can't find these exact drives anywhere altho there are similar 6560s on evilbay... but they don't have the white connector(black/red/yel you mentioned) - no idea what wires are what.

accel - I believe it is 1500, microsteps I believe are 320 on the xya and 400 on z if I'm not mistaken.  pulse is set to 0/o on all??  I have played with all of these settings with zero success.

 

I took it all apart this morning and was looking at it just b4 work and was planning to label the drives and take a crap ton of pics for future reference -when I get home tonight. 

[MiKro]

Well pulse is most likely to fast now, I would go back to the 2 or 3 setting on that. Set the accel rate to 10% to 15 % max for grins to see what happens on all axis. Bump your microsteps up by the next value for tests at this point. try say 3000 if that is a choice. you may try the other direction as well.

I added a file for you to gen a toolpath with. rename by removing the .zip

MK

test.crv3d.zip

[mistermikev]

55 minutes ago, MiKro said:

Well pulse is most likely to fast now, I would go back to the 2 or 3 setting on that. Set the accel rate to 10% to 15 % max for grins to see what happens on all axis. Bump your microsteps up by the next value for tests at this point. try say 3000 if that is a choice. you may try the other direction as well.

I added a file for you to gen a toolpath with. rename by removing the .zip

MK

test.crv3d.zip 19 kB · 0 downloads

roger that.  thanks for the help.  will try asap.

[MiKro]

Here is a better wiring diagram for stepper motors and drivers I put together..

MK

[mistermikev]

1 hour ago, MiKro said:

Here is a better wiring diagram for stepper motors and drivers I put together..

MK

right on that makes a lot of sense then... the green plug is the 4 to the steppers with the pos/neg power, and the white plug is the 3 from the controller then.  thank you for that.

[mistermikev]

 

looks like X/Y are 3/4/7 while Z/A are 3/4/5/7

I've been looking all around the for a manual for these boards but no luck searching for similar 6560/6560AHQ, nor the other numbers I found on the board (prt st01a2 or TX14207)

I did find a much better image of what appears to be the sm board over at cnczone:

over at https://www.cnczone.com/forums/stepper-motors-drives/338540-tx14207-schematic.html

Quote

"I had to piece this guy appart a few months ago and wrote down the board schematics. I can send you what I have but it has not been curated at all.

I found your post trying to figure out what the dip switch do... The X, Y, Z axis have 3,4,5,7 ON; The A axis has 3,4 ON.

From left to right on the Green 6 screw terminal you have: A-, A+, B-, B+, V+, GND these connect to your stepper and power supply

The white terminal connects to the through hole labelled ENA, 5V, DIR, 5V, P, 5V and go to the parallel card adapter."

and later found:

Quote

S1: M1
S2: M2
S3: DCY1
S4: DCY2
S5: TQ1
S6: TQ2
S7: connected to a GAL microcontroller... Not sure yet

Haven't fully digested this yet... but according to that perhaps they installed the drivers in the wrong position or flipped the switches wrong

Quote

Adding:
S7: This reduces the motor current at low speeds i.e. less than about 10 whole steps per second. Makes the motor a run bit nosier but is kinder to the motor, the driver and the power supply.

can anyone comment on what m1/m2/dcy1/dcy2/tq1/tq2 means in laymans' terms?

edit: according to this: http://www.netzmafia.de/skripten/hardware/Datenblaetter/Motor-Servo-Stepper/TB6560AHQ_AFG_E_2003_20080407.pdf

"torque setting input"

[mistermikev]

well... thank you again gents - for all your help.  you lead me to the problem.  just swapped the drives and flipped the switches back to what they were on each drive before the swap... ran my test 5 times and we went right back to center.  I want to end on a positive note tonight so I'm not going to attempt to run the neck pocket as my spirit just couldn't take it at this point if it doesn't go right... so saving that for tomorrow.  Sure looks solved tho.

[curtisa]

With reference to the datasheet you linked to: 

36 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

S1: M1
S2: M2

The combination of these two switches sets the driver to be compatible with the style of stepper motor you have connected. M1 and M2 should both be set to off conditions to select 2-phase motor control, which is what you have on your machine (see page 9 of the datasheet). That's assuming that DIP switches S1 and S2 being in the OFF position (up) = M1 and M2 being off.

42 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

S3: DCY1
S4: DCY2

The combination of these switches sets how quickly the current in each stepper motor coil starts to decay when the steps stop being sent to the driver. Switches S3 and S4 in your case are set to ON, which makes the decay mode 100%, (start to decay immediately when the driver becomes idle, page 9 in the datasheet and also graphs on page 16)

1 hour ago, mistermikev said:

S5: TQ1
S6: TQ2

The combination of these two switches sets the amount of torque (current) drive applied to each motor. The datasheet is a bit vague about this setting, but it looks like the motor driver current is set by an external resistor to a fixed maximum value, and then you can divide this maximum current drive down by a factor of 100%, 75%, 50% and 20% by setting these switches according to the table on page 10 of the datasheet. For your drivers that have S5 = ON and S6 = OFF that would equate to an operating torque of 75% of the set max. For your drivers set to S5 and S6 bot = OFF they're running in 100% torque mode. Higher torque (current) will result in a 'stronger' motor at the expense of more heat being generated in that motor.

1 hour ago, mistermikev said:

S7: This reduces the motor current at low speeds i.e. less than about 10 whole steps per second. Makes the motor a run bit nosier but is kinder to the motor, the driver and the power supply.

I can't find anything in the datasheet that relates to this on first glance, but you have it set ON for all your drives, and I assume ON = motor current reduction active?

[mistermikev]

7 minutes ago, curtisa said:

With reference to the datasheet you linked to: 

The combination of these two switches sets the driver to be compatible with the style of stepper motor you have connected. M1 and M2 should both be set to off conditions to select 2-phase motor control, which is what you have on your machine (see page 9 of the datasheet). That's assuming that DIP switches S1 and S2 being in the OFF position (up) = M1 and M2 being off.

The combination of these switches sets how quickly the current in each stepper motor coil starts to decay when the steps stop being sent to the driver. Switches S3 and S4 in your case are set to ON, which makes the decay mode 100%, (start to decay immediately when the driver becomes idle, page 9 in the datasheet and also graphs on page 16)

The combination of these two switches sets the amount of torque (current) drive applied to each motor. The datasheet is a bit vague about this setting, but it looks like the motor driver current is set by an external resistor to a fixed maximum value, and then you can divide this maximum current drive down by a factor of 100%, 75%, 50% and 20% by setting these switches according to the table on page 10 of the datasheet. For your drivers that have S5 = ON and S6 = OFF that would equate to an operating torque of 75% of the set max. For your drivers set to S5 and S6 bot = OFF they're running in 100% torque mode. Higher torque (current) will result in a 'stronger' motor at the expense of more heat being generated in that motor.

I can't find anything in the datasheet that relates to this on first glance, but you have it set ON for all your drives, and I assume ON = motor current reduction active?

right on.  I saw the pages where they were showing how to set to 20/50/75/100 but wasn't sure how that actualized so you really cleared that up for me and I thank you.  had no idea on the m1/2 and what that meant... so thanks again for that.  l did look at my motors and the 4th axis and z axis are the sm size - slightly smaller than the others... so the switches seemed like they might correspond to that.  

I wonder if I messed up the x axis drive... I did bang that one off the walls more than any other.  

anywho, at this point... I think I've got enough info that if I end up needing to replace them I know I can get a similar one on evilbay... and this thread will be the perfect thing to use as a reference to potentially replace one.  Not to get ahead of myself.  Still am holding my heart as I'll run the neck pocket tomorrow and see if we have a definite fix.  seems good on the test script... went right back to zero.

thank you again for hanging in there with me!!  I've learned a lot and very much thankful for your and mikros guidance.

[curtisa]

Had you lived a bit closer to me I'd send you my old axis drivers that I swapped out of my machine a couple of months ago, as they're just paperweights to me now...

[mistermikev]

3 hours ago, curtisa said:

Had you lived a bit closer to me I'd send you my old axis drivers that I swapped out of my machine a couple of months ago, as they're just paperweights to me now...

well that's nice but honestly the knowledge transfer is even more valuable.  the sentiment is appreciate tho!!