CNC por Spanish flamenco guitar parts?

[lagoausente]

Hello everybody.

 I have been searching a reading some threads like this one http://www.projectguitar.com/forums/topic/48410-best-entry-level-cnc-machine/ and the articles Curtisa posted, also the discussion about 2.5 capabilities.

  I´m more a technology guy than carpenter/manual, but I have some ideas for building flamenco guitars. Tradicitionally, all the parts here in Spain were built like carptenter from the headstock to the end, even they tend to follow the most rudimentary "ways" and tools that require lots of time.

 

I started the thread, because, I have some doubts related 2.5D, 3D capablities of some machines/software, and because seem most topics are oriented to electric guitars, that are different horses, so in classical/flamenco guitars must join parts even using a CNC for parts.

 

 So, will try to be specific as I can,

What I attached in pics, a finished neck with head and shaft and heel are three parts joined (glued), most workd for me seems shaft curve with specific radio, and heel with a "nice" figure from a just a square piece of woodd seems a 3D hard work often handmade.

 So my first doubts, if what machine/or combo cnc/machine cnc should I need?  Do 2.5D? or 3D? is software depending or machine depending?

 I could use the machine for other milling features, example, the top and bottom, come in pieces of 4mm, than usually are sand manually til get 2.6mm, so i guess this work could be very easy done with a cnc, maybe also the rossete milling needed, maybe the hole., Usually harmonic bars are cutted from the own original 4mm wodd, then modeled, I guess a cnc could be most of that quite easily.

 some parts like this are not that dificult to make by hand like the the neck curves so should be optional depending on the machine I could afford.

 So hope if you can give me a first orientation about hardware/software capabilities,  prices, 2.5D or 3D difference to find out if needed 3D for the neck.

  Hope I explained my first idea, so you can give me a first orientation.

 thank you.

 

[ADFinlayson]

I've been watching Two Cherries on youtube, he's an acoustic, violin etc maker and does a lot with CNC and he talks a lot about the CNC process, some very useful info in his videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCudSjpTvNt2KN5jVRmhKAGA

[lagoausente]

Thank you for the link. I´m not sure if he say what machine he use.

 I know that with expensive ones can be done all you want.

 Have found an X-Carve video que seems to do a neck with Rhino 3D software

 

[ADFinlayson]

not sure bud, his latest couple of videos go in quite some detail into the trials and tribulations of carving necks with CNC. It seems to be one of the hardest parts of guitar making with CNC. I am no expert though. Members like @MiKro will hopefully chime in and share some knowledge for you.

[curtisa]

11 hours ago, lagoausente said:

So my first doubts, if what machine/or combo cnc/machine cnc should I need?  Do 2.5D? or 3D? is software depending or machine depending?

There is no distinction between 2.5D and 3D with regards to the machine itself. A 3 axis CNC will move exactly where it's told to move by the milling code fed to it from the controlling software and/or hardware. The details of how it makes those moves is governed by whatever software you use to generate the milling code in the first place, which is entirely independent of the CNC machine. Think of the CNC more as a car, and the milling code is the driver. The driver of the car determines how to accelerate, brake, change gears, approach corners etc. But without the driver the car goes nowhere.

 

11 hours ago, lagoausente said:

I could use the machine for other milling features, example, the top and bottom, come in pieces of 4mm, than usually are sand manually til get 2.6mm, so i guess this work could be very easy done with a cnc, maybe also the rossete milling needed, maybe the hole., Usually harmonic bars are cutted from the own original 4mm wodd, then modeled, I guess a cnc could be most of that quite easily.

While you could thickness an acoustic top using the CNC, it would be extremely time consuming and wasteful. A more logical use of the CNC for an acoustic guitar would be to cut the sound hole in the top, cut the channels for the sound hole rosette and purfling, rough shape the bridge from a block of wood, rough shape the neck profile, slot and radius a fret board, add inlays etc.

The CNC will not take away the requirement to bend and glue parts together on an acoustic guitar, so there will still be a significant manual labour component to building, even when applying all the practical uses of the CNC to the construction of an acoustic instrument.

You also need to be aware that using a CNC does not automatically result in a group of guitar components that just magically snap together and make a guitar, nor is it a case of pressing a button to generate an unlimited supply of guitar parts in a matter of minutes. There is a significant investment in time required in designing the guitar parts, experimenting with cutting speeds and feeds, optimising tool paths, reiteration of work, problem solving with regards to failed cutting operations etc that can easily overtake the time it would require to manually build the equivalent guitar using more conventional hand and power tools. It can take days just to design and generate the milling code for one guitar bridge that comes out exactly like you intended it to; you could easily make several in the same period of time if you do it by hand.

[MiKro]

@curtisa, well said!!

CNC is not what most people think. It takes time to acquire the knowledge and make them work properly and they still will produce garbage if you feed it that. They do what you tell it to do within it's abilities.

The software is another beast that takes a lot of time as well.

mk

[lagoausente]

Thank you both for your replies,  Yesterday I was quite impatient and nervous because it was 1  unit left of a new X-Carve on Amazon at 1500.., while price from the UE Inventables Store, and the other seller was 2500-2600,  so I was tempted and needed urgent decide because was only 1 unit left. Finally order it, so I hope if all is ok with the seller (I supposed if anything is no ok I have the Amazon payment protection). That said..., I will try to explain a little better.

I also found a tutorial of a user using Fusion 360 (free for hobbiest), making real 3D with the X-Carve so I decide to order.

 

 Of course I already know all you have writen about building a acoutic guitar requires, To clear things I´ll try to explain.

 I want to start to build flamenco guitars, have a friend that already does it, and I god a lot of info from him, also have a friend luthier that I´ll need to take help from him.

   You probably know the name Paco de Lucía,  but probably don´t know about the flamenco guitars market and enviroment is quite surreal.  After some years I got some good high end guitars, and that mean spent lot of money, but guitars from 1968, 1971, 1974, 1978.  Why? There are two factors, one "theory" say about wood was better, but reality is that actual builders have bought that old wood of the died luthiers..., but no one could got their sound. Why? Well, there are two reasons. One is that all of them, the one active and the one that have passed away take their "secrets" to grave literally, so only the "son of ..." learns his father "tricks" to get that particular sound.., thats a acknowledge fact.  Also, on the active  builders they don´t share their little "secrets" no nobody,  but second factor is more painful for my mind.., I have realized after some time taliking with them that they have no idea of what they are doing..., I mean, they just follow two methods, (try to copy, or do same as his father tought him, plus trial error method.

  I have sound engeneer education (I had a litle recording studio and still have gear and great mics, preamps and so on), and also music educacion from 8 years old on music conservatory,  so I´m familiar with musical harmony, frecuency analisys, vibration physics.

 Actual luthiers that are selling guitar for big amount of money, don´t know even what and harmonic is,  don´t know what a major third is,  and even contradict them each other regarding simple issues like varnish. As an example, Jose Ramirez III wrote about why he started to use special synthetic varnish to add desired cross stiffness  to the top wood, that man passed away on 1995, but actually you can found builders that even say "varnish has no influence at all", of course talking with this type of builders about anything scientific is absurd because they don´t have knowledge about nothing about music, sound or anything, sadly they are just carptenters that "clone" "tips" "secrets" and "tricks", trial en error but they don´t even have idea of what really happens inside the guitar.

 

 On the other hand I have found some so much evident intentional things on the vintage  guitars I own, that I want to replicate myself,  plus analize and measure many details using apropiate gear (wood flexibility, resonance,concrete harmonics I already have found..),,  so when I said, I was not a carpenter I didn´t mean I think a cnc can build me a guitar, not at all....,  this is another factor.., realize that you can build a electric guitar and exchange the neck from one to another body,    as you said, all in acoustic guitars you must build and glue, but you can´t unglue, so I already know I will must need to build many guitars just to get the sound and conclusions.

 If you take a look only on the head attached, that is just a simple flamenco head, making that by hand, plus the neck, plus the heel model should be a waste of time to do the same head drew every time.

 Still with the cnc have plenty of carpenter work left..., but without it I should need to leave my job or should need months to build just one unit, that would send me to none sound conclusion...,

 On the other hand, on my job I have some "dead" hours (I´m lucky on that) that I can use to get used to cnc soft, so that time spent on model one guitar model head, freatboard, neck, heel,  I will can carve 5-10- 15 heads , necks, freatboards,  so can optimize my time better to concentrate on the still left and more important work, building and tuning each detail of the guitars, compare, measure, analize, and build more guitars to correct previous errors. 

 

 Maybe all this, sound too pushing, but that something that I want to try , maybe I´ll fail on what I expect to get, time will tell.

 

I will have lot of doubts of course now and in the future. As en example, when you mentioned " While you could thickness an acoustic top using the CNC, it would be extremely time consuming and wasteful. "

 I´m open to any other tool/way suggestion. Wood pieces for top and bottom usually are standard 4mm, then must be sand to around 2.6mm, than fine tuning... ,

on the first step, from 4mm to 2.6mm, I should need to get a not perfect sand but and homogeneous thick,  I have not searched in depth yet about sand machines if there is a good way to get a homogeneous  first sand (before the hand fine tune one),  so I should like what do you suggest instead the cnc.

 Builders here make all by hand, even they consider use a sand machine is not ok, even any machine shoud provide a more accurate work and time saving.

 Sorry for my long post today.

 

 

 

 

[curtisa]

21 hours ago, lagoausente said:

 Maybe all this, sound too pushing, but that something that I want to try , maybe I´ll fail on what I expect to get, time will tell.

I applaud your keeness and tenacity to jump in head first into such a project. And welcome to the world of CNC with your new purchase.

I would advise caution, however, to not get too carried away too quickly if this big step also involves a lot of first-time experiences for you. Have you built a guitar before using more conventional methods? Are you familiar with the fundamentals and concepts employed in 2D drafting and 3D modeling? Purchasing a CNC with the intention of building a guitar with it is a bit like buying a Steinway piano and immediately booking a concert recital at Royal Albert Hall. I would highly recommend you start with small projects on the CNC and work your way up to a guitar. It will be a long journey and you will make mistakes, but you will learn a lot along the way.

 

21 hours ago, lagoausente said:

on the first step, from 4mm to 2.6mm, I should need to get a not perfect sand but and homogeneous thick,  I have not searched in depth yet about sand machines if there is a good way to get a homogeneous  first sand (before the hand fine tune one),  so I should like what do you suggest instead the cnc.

Personally I would use a thickness (drum) sanding machine to get the top from 4mm down to your required 2.6mm, and then use the CNC to work with the piece at the correct thickness. While the CNC could do it for you, the main complication will be trying to secure a wide, flat, thin, flexible piece of wood to the CNC table so that there are no bulges or warps that would prevent the top being milled down uniformally by the CNC. The only way I could see that being achievable would be the use of a vacuum table, which is not a cheap or easy exercise to add to a CNC, let alone the X-carve.

Assuming you could hold the wood down perfectly flat and securely, the CNC would likely take a long time to zigzag back and forth to remove the excess material from the wood. Ideally you would use the biggest cutter you couldfind to minimise the number of back-and-forth motions and reduce the amount of time it takes, but I believe the X-carve uses a regular router with a 1/4" collet, which limits the size of the biggest bit you can install to perhaps a 1/2" diameter cutter. I would expect such a machine to take over 30 minutes to complete the task, which is probably about 20 minutes longer than it would take using a thickness sander. Granted it's not a particularly excessive amount of time, but there is a lot of complicated work to plan and execute for both yourself and the machine.

[lagoausente]

1 hour ago, curtisa said:

I applaud your keeness and tenacity to jump in head first into such a project. And welcome to the world of CNC with your new purchase.

I would advise caution, however, to not get too carried away too quickly if this big step also involves a lot of first-time experiences for you. Have you built a guitar before using more conventional methods? Are you familiar with the fundamentals and concepts employed in 2D drafting and 3D modeling? Purchasing a CNC with the intention of building a guitar with it is a bit like buying a Steinway piano and immediately booking a concert recital at Royal Albert Hall. I would highly recommend you start with small projects on the CNC and work your way up to a guitar. It will be a long journey and you will make mistakes, but you will learn a lot along the way.

 Be sure that I have my feet on the ground in all aspects,  I know will have to face many failures, and will need lot of time to get results, and even know that even finally may cannot achieve what I expected in my mind regarding the sound.

  On the past, I spent many hours building my own Mic preamps (DIY),  from the money point of view it, was much easy to buy used gear and "mod it",  or even buying used than building it, moreover re-selling a commercial mic preamp that you have bought used keeps mots of its value (if its good one), while DIY taked a lot of time, finally was not that cheap, and re-sale is something to forget.

That said, even I still never have built a guitar,  it has sense for me undertake the acomplished path to do it. Why? 

At least in my country, where are built most of this type of guitars, I know people that has musical education, sound engeener education, play an instrument, and people who to all three, but no one have the abilities, time, or want to face the effor to built this guitars   , and on the other side,  all the builders of this specific "flamenco" guitars, they have the ability, experience, but lack of education and often too "mind-closed" , they even bother easily if you ask them or just question their fixed ideas. Many fixed ideas are contradictory even between them, they even no agree in basic statements.    Most of them tried to "clone" or copy some died best luthiers sound and no one could.., , they attribute it to something mystical but after some years I have realized that even they are excellent wood workers, they are also extremely neuron lazy and min-closed (curiosly some exceptions are already retired).

 As consecuence of this, that old vintage guitars are still better, difficult to find, and pro flamenco guitarrists play with them and are extreme expensive. Only some guitarrist play with actual guitar builders as part of their promotion agreement.

  In summary, the main motivation to try this is just because is ardous work, so low people do it, and the ones who do it are the contrary of any scientific way use their mind.  I spent myself 8500 euro on just one of that 1974 guitar, and 6000 on other one. I had before an actual builder 3300 and was nothing special but a guitar. Below 3000 euro you simply can get a crap flamenco guitar. Time for handmade may justify the prices, but its quite frustrating to spent 3000 euro on a guitar that say nothing.

 I have two electric PRS SE (student edition), and they are awesome for a bit more than 600 euro!

 

 I comment this so you can realize that investmente 1500 on a cnc is not that much in comparison. In fact I´m going to sell this week one of a vintage guitar 1968  (good but not that magic really), I paid 3800 for that guitar, and store gives re-buy it to me for 2200.  So in the long term be sure I´ll be happy if can built just a few guitars good quality, the cnc investment is not that much.

 Also cnc even can be used to make PCB electronics, or any other thing so appart of some guitar parts its worth to learn for any purpose. I don´t bought it as guitar maker.., but as you said, I´ll have to fail many times, but I just need one head, freatboard,neck, hell 3D model variant, long term time saving for this parts will allow me more time to sand, glue, varnish one.. , then other, then other and so on.   Just if can carve 10 heads,10  necks for 10 guitar will worth the time of learning the cnc. Realize that only the head (that is different than acoustic metal string guitar) it has a lot work, I cannot imagine me making 10 or 20 heads handmade. There are some companies that sell the full neck built, but they sell quite expensive, and they don´t sale the lenght I want. (and I need found a mathematical reason for keep that lenght like the original guitars I have).

 

 

2 hours ago, curtisa said:

Personally I would use a thickness (drum) sanding machine to get the top from 4mm down to your required 2.6mm, and then use the CNC to work with the piece at the correct thickness. While the CNC could do it for you, the main complication will be trying to secure a wide, flat, thin, flexible piece of wood to the CNC table so that there are no bulges or warps that would prevent the top being milled down uniformally by the CNC. The only way I could see that being achievable would be the use of a vacuum table, which is not a cheap or easy exercise to add to a CNC, let alone the X-carve.

Agree, I have bee searching yesterday for this type of machines before your reply I suspected should be an alternative. What I found where not width enough (commercial), now searching for drum ones, I see a lot of DIY videos,  the only concern here is to keep precission.  Havent time yet to make a full search,  if you already know a commercial one I should take a look, if drum sanders usually are DIY I should like you a suggestion to get a unit that could bit the witdh (around 38-40cm) and can control the thikness sand with a decent precision should be ideal of coure.

 Regarding the X-Carve, the Amazon seller have not sent the unit yet, (have read some comments of some item canceled because the seller did not have the item,and refund the buyer), so I´m not afraid for the money because Amazon warranty, but still the unit will be shipped I´m just expecting.., price was quite good,  lower than official store, so I´m still hoping will be real. If so, I shoul need to buy a set of bits and clamps.  Inventables recomends one of their "super pack", so I could order them there, but maybe you could suggest me another brand or set to start with.., anyway I´ll wait for the amazon seller reply confirmation before ordering any bit set.

 Thank you a lot Curtisa for your time and help, that encourage me, I like chagenlles.

[lagoausente]

Sad short cnc experience,  Amazon seller cancelled the order, as I was afraid, seems the item was not on stock or not on that price.

 Alternative, Shapeoko or go manual tools,  or consider a betteer Router (higher working are or more 3D abilities).

 I´m not afraid about learning software. Guess if you have any suggestions about another maybe more expensive/better machines as alternative to the suggestion to  go manual.

 Main work should be all neck, specially the heel, has a 3D work that should worth the investment.

http://www.rafaellopezehijo.com/proceso/mastil.php

Have read other spanish guys that have followed cnc route for all neck and feedback is positive, after a year the guy was really happy for the amount of work this neck-head-heel this guitars require.

[curtisa]

Sorry to hear that. As you've probably already found, this is a particularly expensive hobby for most people.

My first CNC machine was something called a 3020, which just refers to the maximum travel for the X and Y axes (Y=30cm, X=20cm). They were very common on eBay at the time. It actually wasn't all that bad provided you only worked within its limitations. There were other models available that were bigger - 3040, 6040, 9060. I think the biggest models were around the $3000 mark.

[lagoausente]

Thank you for your reply,

 Well, the amazon seller price cons 1500 euro shipped, while price from official store is around 2500 plus 200 shipping for the X-Carve,  there is a seller on ebay for about 2400 shipped. So 1500 was too good to be true.

 Now I´m comparing Shakeoko, they are similar with some differences (clamps, include or not, waste board drilled or not differences), prices are not that different.

 So now I´m less excited I´m researching with calm,  for that price, 2500 or so, I´m thinkng maybe other guys maybe be suggesting bigger machines, I mean less limited,

 For example, I have realized I have to glue the head and the neck before carving (if want to make the neck as my originals), since the cut is where end be 6 and 1 string tuner,  also heel, the other elaborated 3D I have been thinking about the elevation (6.5cm on X-Carve, 7.5 on the Shapeoko) limits the position of the piece to carve),  

 So now I´m open to alternatives even on more expensive machines, that doesnt mean that I will purchase them, but maybe I could start manual and better save for a more pro Miller instead of buy now one of this two routes.

 

 Thank you for time.

[curtisa]

Sounds like neither unit would have worked for you with the limited cutting height, so perhaps it was a good thing that the Amazon seller cancelled your order. 7.5cm of Z height isn't much to work with for a machine large enough to carve a guitar neck.

The eBay CNC6090 unit has a maximum Z working height of 140mm. Maybe have a look at that one? The main drawback with the generic Chinese machines on eBay is that the software will be somewhat restrictive as to what you can use and how you use it. After sales support and documentation will also be very poor.

[MiKro]

You could always do the heel from the side using a poor mans rotary.

[lagoausente]

Since I´m new to all this, on the first point of the learning curve,  I´m not sure about how shure about the limits of each machine.

 For example, even with the 6.5mm or 7.5 limit, I think that could be done with some tricks, I think,, example, like Mikro suggest using a rotary for the heel, placing the wood piece sideway, could be carved on one side, then the other, other idea I had was, making a special socket on the waste board, to placing the wood side that will be the front of the heel looking up to the machine. (don´t know if should be a botched way to make a hole on the wasteboard to gain space below it..),

 On the head and neck (that found must be glued before carved), 7..5 should be in theory s ok, I mean, if trace a imaginary line from the top of the head, parallel to the other side of the neck is around 7mm, if place it with the fret side looking to the wasteboard I could make the found zone of the neck, not sure if this machines (X-Carve) shoud continue working on the head angled upwards..., if no should need to make separate works, so fist caver the neck round side, then clamp the head, and carve the head only (even with the neck glued on two diferent passes, but all this seems quite complicated,  s la

 Placing the head-neck with the fret side up, should be no stable,

 I suspect that for anyone used to this machines, the way of doing this work may be more obvios than from me, maybe suggesting manual option like MiKro said (rotary for the heel), of maybe with position, or tips I didn´t imagine yet, maybe with a machine more capable.

 Ideally, when I see videos like this one below, I say, wooww., I guess that man could do the head- neck- heel I pretend easy, maybe biggest problem is that I´m still lost, because seems to make same thing may be thousands of ways, what I´m after is a smart and efficient way and time saving, still don´t know how-to.

  For a experimented CNC guy may be a obvious way to do it I think,  I´ll have  a look to the machine you say on ebay.

 In any case, any ideas will be wellcome, I suspect that many of that experimented guys are registered here but enter here by time to time, and I don´t have the time to my long posts...,will have to continue searching, trying to contact experimented users for ideas of how-two .Put the link again with the images of the main process I should like to mechanize:  http://www.rafaellopezehijo.com/proceso/mastil.php

 

Thank you in advance.

 

 

 

[MiKro]

7 minutes ago, lagoausente said:

" Mikro suggest using a rotary for the heel, placing the wood piece sideway, could be carved on one side, then the other, "

 

A poors man rotary is not a rotary. It is just using fixed points/flats to do each as quarters/90* or eights/45* flats for rotational position then machining in 2.5D.

MK

[lagoausente]

6 minutes ago, MiKro said:

It is just using fixed points/flats to do each as quarters/90* or eights/45* flats for rotational position then machining in 2.5D.

Can you provide me a link to what you mean? google says me this https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2344975

 

 

1 hour ago, curtisa said:

The eBay CNC6090 unit has a maximum Z working height of 140mm. Maybe have a look at that one?

Seems much better machine, but I found two models and very variable prices (all new), from 2000 euro to 4400, Also ones says 3 axis and others 4 .., , also 1,5kw vs 2.2.., best prices from Switzerland, diferent prices I suppose come with diferent configuration, must re-search this machine,  One of the item description says G-Code,  Also have found a  video about Mach3 saying is compatible with Fusion 360 (free for hobbiests if I´m correct), 

I love techology, I´m not lazy about learning all this, also have free hours on my job, (technology aswel, I´m lucky with this)  so I should like to deepen CNC world, options, tips, tricks, and yes , Curtisa, maybe was good fo me the Amazon seller cancelled the item, should better deep in all of this before buying anything.

  Nice forum, thank you a lot for your replies. I try to ivestigate searching o google but is not easy since CNC is used to so many things that is not that easy to find info or ideas for making guitars.

 I don´t expect you solve all my doubts, but for a newbie like me any little thing like the Rotary, or the 6090 open me thousands of questions,  I want to learn, I´m not lazy about read links, blogs, tutorials,  but just now I´m quite lost yet, sorry for that,, any little info you give to me is important at this first blind first steps.

 Thank you for the forum.

[lagoausente]

CNC 6090 that say "1x A Axis",  if I understand correctly that already comes with the 4th axis rotary (like the poor rotay Mikro say?)

 If I found correctly, the around 2000 euro from Switzerland  are without the rotary and 2500 with it, I´m correct?

https://www.ebay.es/itm/CNC-6090-4-Ejes-Fresado-Maquina-de-grabado-Control-Madera-Router-Kit-Volante/352672320127?hash=item521ce88a7f:g:4SgAAOSwR05c6z70

  All 6090 I search in EU or in Spain cost 4000-5000 euro.. just import taxes distributor same machine¿?

 That 2500-2600 euro is same cost official X-Carve, so if this machine do real 4 axis (with rotary A-Axis) plus 140 height that should be really amazing. 

[lagoausente]

 

[curtisa]

23 minutes ago, lagoausente said:

CNC 6090 that say "1x A Axis",  if I understand correctly that already comes with the 4th axis rotary (like the poor rotay Mikro say?)

Yes, the 'A' axis is normally the rotary axis.

I think when @MiKro said 'poor rotary' he was more referring to devising ways of holding the work statically on an angle and machining it in increments of 45 degrees (or 22.5 degrees, or 10 degrees etc), rather than on a mechanised continuously variable rotary spindle like in your video, above.

 

27 minutes ago, lagoausente said:

If I found correctly, the around 2000 euro from Switzerland  are without the rotary and 2500 with it, I´m correct?

https://www.ebay.es/itm/CNC-6090-4-Ejes-Fresado-Maquina-de-grabado-Control-Madera-Router-Kit-Volante/352672320127?hash=item521ce88a7f:g:4SgAAOSwR05c6z70

  All 6090 I search in EU or in Spain cost 4000-5000 euro.. just import taxes distributor same machine¿?

Not sure. The CNC you have linked to seems to be similar most of the other ones I've seen for the price.

One thing to be careful of is what software is meant to be installed. It's not clear in the listing what software is being installed and what computer it is for. The listing above details multiple conflicting things about the software - that a 32 bit version of Windows is required, that a 32 or 64 bit version is required, that EMC2 works (impossible with USB), disabling antivirus software to install it, using unlock codes to defeat the trial period (sounds a lot like cracked software)...

That seems to be a common risk with the Chinese CNC mills; that they are so poorly documented that you just don't really know what you're going to get. If you're adept at tinkering and circuit modification it's possible to work around these hurdles, but if all you want is a plug-and-play CNC machine you'll need to be prepared for the possibility that it will not work straight away without a lot of investigation and researching.

[curtisa]

There appear to be a few variants of the CNC6090 floating around at the moment:

https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC0.A0.H0.Xcnc6090.TRS0&_nkw=cnc6090&_sacat=0

The version that retails for less than $2000AU is usually fitted with a parallel port interface. The 3020 CNC I started out with was similar to this.

The one that costs about $2500AU has the USB interface.

There is another set of variants which seem to cost $3000AU - $4000 which are a different design and weigh nearly 150kG, so they must have more substantial frames for more heavy duty milling work.

If you buy one with the 4th 'A' axis that adds a bit more to the price. If you buy one with a 2.2kW spindle instead of the 1.5kW spindle it costs a bit more again.

There also seems to be another version for over $5000 that I haven't seen before, but it supposedly has an all-steel frame and weighs over 200 kilos. It's probably a bit of overkill for your situation.

[lagoausente]

mmm, seems like the only hardware cheaper version without support and lack of item description,

 This one seems same https://www.ebay.es/itm/USB-6090-2200W-4AXIS-CNC-Router-grabador-maquina-de-fresado-ENGRAVER-fresadora/153221916495?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item23acbce74f:g:DwsAAOSw8mJbTZge

But this description say:

Recommend software:Mach3, EMC2

  Searching o google I found Emc2 is a free soft for Linux, while Mach3 is a 175 usd soft for windows.

https://www.machsupport.com/shop/mach3/

Quote

Mach3 is very rich in features and provides a great value to those needing a CNC control software package. Mach3 works on most Windows PC’s to control the motion of motors (stepper & servo) by processing G-Code. While comprising many advanced features, it is the most intuitive CNC control software available. Mach3 is customizable and has been used for many applications with numerous types of hardware.

 

 I´m still confused with the steps: on this tutorial that I found for the Fusion 360 to use with X-Carve, he say at the bottom

 

Quote

There are number of sender software available to send the .nc data to your machine:  Easel (browser-based) can do it, I’ve had success with Chlipeppr (browser-based), I hear good things about LaserWeb/CNCWeb (browser-based, not yet tried), but currently use Universal GCode Sender (Java applet)  for all my work.

 

So from Fusion 360, made the model, CAD and Cam, and export G-gode (if undertood well), then he used Universal Gcode Sender to send that the G-Code to make the X-Carve Machine,

 Regarding EMC2, Mach3 google searches say seems about the same thing for linux/Mach3, on the EMC2 web say:

http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/common_Getting_EMC.html
 

Quote

 

It does not provide drawing (CAD - Computer Aided Design) or G-code generation from the drawing (CAM - Computer Automated Manufacturing) functions.

It can simultaneously move up to 9 axes and supports a variety of interfaces.

The control can operate true servos (analog or PWM) with the feedback loop closed by the EMC software at the computer, or open loop with "step-servos" or stepper motors.

 

Not sure if this apps just act as usb interface ¿? will search tomorrow about it, late here, have to sleep, but think is a youtube video in spanish talking about Fusion 360 en Mach 3.

 

 Regarding the machine, the 140mm is cool,  Not sure if the Rottary static method Mikro wanted to say, should allow to work with 6.5mm on the X-Carve, I undertood the idea but can´t imagine the way Mikro suggested..,

 Regarding the 6090, vs X-Carve vs Shapeoko,  this last ones look like a toy compared to the 6090, just plug and play with basic software, while those 6090 seem lack of support and soft and better machine, so seems more a like a middle step between DIY CNCs and plug and play ones. better machine, no support vs worse machine with a brand name and a basic software (X-Carve).

 

Regarding the rottary A-axis that comes with one of those 2500 ones from ebay, may should be not that easy to set it totally stable to maintain 360 precision on a entire neck angled, should need a very precise holder perfectly aligned I guess the static method Mikro had in mind sounded easy, but really I should need to see an example to catch the idea.

 Thank you so much, lot of options now.

[lagoausente]

Reply myself (its spanish video),

 Say Mash3 (seems same as EMC2), is for adjust diferent settings on the machine, lot of settings (spindle speed, end of career, apply a offset),   so it transates the G-Code to the machine and allow you adjust aditional custom parameters to a Code. So seems more posibilities to adjust lot of things (more pro maybe) , less plug and play. if I´m understanding things ok.

 I think I´ll write that guy directly his suggestion.

 I should like to know your opnions aswell, and understand the static rotary method.

 

 

 

 

[curtisa]

1 hour ago, lagoausente said:

But this description say:

Recommend software:Mach3, EMC2

  Searching o google I found Emc2 is a free soft for Linux, while Mach3 is a 175 usd soft for windows.

Correct, and the issue I have with that listing (among others) is that EMC2 does not support USB connectivity, and is unlikely to ever do so. This is more to do with the fundamental operating model of EMC2 requiring a dedicated real-time, latency-free interface to the CNC machine, which USB currently cannot do. Under EMC2 your only connection options are parallel port or ethernet.

(BTW, EMC2 has long since abandoned that name and now operates under 'LinuxCNC')

 

2 hours ago, lagoausente said:

So from Fusion 360, made the model, CAD and Cam, and export G-gode (if undertood well), then he used Universal Gcode Sender to send that the G-Code to make the X-Carve Machine,

Correct. Fusion360 is the software you use to create your 3D model and generate the G-code, which contains all the necessary movement commands that are understood by the CNC machine. You then need a second piece of software to send that G-code to the machine and make it move. There is no direct link between Fusion360 and the CNC.

[lagoausente]

Fine,  I have contacted a guy of the video, has a web in spanish and seem to be quite experience. Is has even online courses for Fusion 360 and lot videos about useful working tools from all types, also CNC videos, so I emailed him for a recomendation/opinion. I guess he must be bussy of work, so will have to wait his reply.

 Regarding those Ebay seller I think they sell same items but they don´t care or know very much how the machine works so the item description may be  wrong on some auctions.