Jump to content

so laminated necks and veneer... would you...


Recommended Posts

On 3/4/2020 at 4:54 PM, mistermikev said:

funny, was just involved in a thread on facebook regarding a finger jointed headstock.  I said it looks cheap because it reminds me a lot of two things: flooring and moudings.  I also think it just doesn't seem like it would be that stable due to the short grain... but what do I know.  I guess they did this on taylors for a while... wonder why they stopped because according to the expert on facebook it was a super strong joint and the only reason luthiers don't use it is because it's difficult to do. 

IKEA... hmmm... wonder where our resident fine furniture expert is?  @Prostheta what say ye?  IKEA =  good or bad?

 

Depends on what perspective you want to look at them from. As engineered products made to the absolute bare minimum of cost and manufacturing overhead with maximum "affordable" profitability they have the entire market. Everything is made as well as it has to be, but nothing more.

For example, I noticed a dining table that is made to look like solid Oak (I even overheard somebody saying "se on massiivipuuta" or "it's solid wood" when forced to be in IKEA Raisio once) but used the bare minimum of actual Oak. Literally slices of end grain and long grain veneered over a cheaper core material with solid areas for necessary strength. Engineered cheapness. I both hate it and respect the work needed to achieve the end.

I would underline the difference between the terms "stain" and "dye", even though there is a degree of overlap. Stain is generally commutative with "paint" in that it is a surface finish that sits on the material. "Dye" absorbs into the material. Even though they're often used interchangeably (right or wrong) I see them as different products/methods. For veneers, dyeing should penetrate through the most common 0,7mm to 1,0mm veneers, at least with spirit-based dyes and woods that are good at accepting dye. In that respect, you find a lot of these dyed veneers are materials with that practical benefit of accepting dyes readily as opposed to being thicker stronger structural materials. At these thicknesses - as mentioned - the glue provides stabilisation and strength anyway. Dyed veneers are mostly aimed at the marquetry market than for use in laminations that require strength.

Coarse woods like Oak, Wengé, etc. don't make good veneers on the basis that the fibres are closer to the thickness of the finished veneer than say, Sapele or Maple. I hate working with Oak veneer, given how it is very sensitive to glue bleedthrough, fracturing from drying out and quarter sawn rays flaking off.

Pear, Poplar, Aspen, Lehmus and other plain soft woods are great for dyeing yourself. Heavier woods like Maple are the sort that require "hard" infusion. Personally, I don't think there's any real benefit from being overly specific about the wood used in pinstripes other than "hardwood". It's easy to overthink things and try to eak out the last 0,1% of usefulness. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, komodo said:

If you buy straight up lumber, it's not that bad. The Black Queen used two pieces from Ebay. $78 and $87 for 1" x 3.5" x 36" And, those were choice pieces. I was communicating with the lumber place and telling them what I was looking for and they pulled some killer ones. Also, I got my full neck with headstock, the body center 'spine, and extra for the tremolo cover and more.

I did splurge on the quilt top because I wanted a killer one (figure and color), one that was thick enough for a deep carve (without compromising depth), and I had to snipe an auction and beat others. If I had a good lumberyard where I could set up a relationship and be a regular buyer, I imagine the deals would get way better.

If you saw the metal tele I built before my current build, it had a solid Pau Ferro neck. As much as I love the ebony, the Pau Ferro is spectacular for necks and considerably less expensive. It smokes like hell when you route it, but it carves great and is the best guitar neck I've ever had. It polishes up nicely. This could all be thrown out the window when the current build is finished.

a mere 165 for a neck?  (like I said, rockafeller!)  is beautiful tho... would love to try that someday.

 

1 hour ago, Prostheta said:

 

Depends on what perspective you want to look at them from. As engineered products made to the absolute bare minimum of cost and manufacturing overhead with maximum "affordable" profitability they have the entire market. Everything is made as well as it has to be, but nothing more.

For example, I noticed a dining table that is made to look like solid Oak (I even overheard somebody saying "se on massiivipuuta" or "it's solid wood" when forced to be in IKEA Raisio once) but used the bare minimum of actual Oak. Literally slices of end grain and long grain veneered over a cheaper core material with solid areas for necessary strength. Engineered cheapness. I both hate it and respect the work needed to achieve the end.

I would underline the difference between the terms "stain" and "dye", even though there is a degree of overlap. Stain is generally commutative with "paint" in that it is a surface finish that sits on the material. "Dye" absorbs into the material. Even though they're often used interchangeably (right or wrong) I see them as different products/methods. For veneers, dyeing should penetrate through the most common 0,7mm to 1,0mm veneers, at least with spirit-based dyes and woods that are good at accepting dye. In that respect, you find a lot of these dyed veneers are materials with that practical benefit of accepting dyes readily as opposed to being thicker stronger structural materials. At these thicknesses - as mentioned - the glue provides stabilisation and strength anyway. Dyed veneers are mostly aimed at the marquetry market than for use in laminations that require strength.

Coarse woods like Oak, Wengé, etc. don't make good veneers on the basis that the fibres are closer to the thickness of the finished veneer than say, Sapele or Maple. I hate working with Oak veneer, given how it is very sensitive to glue bleedthrough, fracturing from drying out and quarter sawn rays flaking off.

Pear, Poplar, Aspen, Lehmus and other plain soft woods are great for dyeing yourself. Heavier woods like Maple are the sort that require "hard" infusion. Personally, I don't think there's any real benefit from being overly specific about the wood used in pinstripes other than "hardwood". It's easy to overthink things and try to eak out the last 0,1% of usefulness. 

lot there. 

I hear ya on the 'respect for ingenuity.  Would never buy it myself but there is admittedly a  lot of thought that goes into how to get it all into an efficient box and such.  My wife once brought home an ikea hat/coat rack... it's all solid wood, but it is crap.  I have reglued and strengthened so many parts of it... and told her NEVER buy from that place again.   So I guess I have a vendetta!  it's hurt me so many times!

so your vote on veneer is poplar is ok, and it seems the general consensus is so.  I appreciate you weighing in on it.  that said it also sounds like you are saying dying walnut(for instance) black, then glueing it up and sanding it back - it should remain quite black?  seems like that'd be a better option anyway.  I would think that even w/o dye, once you get some oil finish on walnut it'll look 'black enough' anyway.

is a good point about oak veneer... probably don't want to hang on to a lot of that for a long time. 

thank you for the response!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Walnut heartwood goes black when washed with Iron III Acetate, so if the surrounding woods aren't tannin heavy you can treat it as part of finishing. Test all your woods first though. 

Iron III Acetate is produced by dissolving iron in acetic acid, or spirit vinegar. Steel wool works, but the result is less good than say, old iron nails. Proper high strength acetic acid isn't necessary. Just bear in mind the water content. I strain mine through coffee filters and allow any solids to fall out of suspension. Junk can stain otherwise underactive woods.

Walnut is pretty much black enough, however it can easily be made so. A good option. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, mistermikev said:

a mere 165 for a neck?  (like I said, rockafeller!) 

Looking at Warmoth, most necks clock in around $200, pau ferro $400, rosewoods $500+, considering I got the neck AND the body wood for that, I consider it a bargain. Pickups usually cost more than the neck. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, komodo said:

Looking at Warmoth, most necks clock in around $200, pau ferro $400, rosewoods $500+, considering I got the neck AND the body wood for that, I consider it a bargain. Pickups usually cost more than the neck. 

it is certainly well more than $200 worth of beauty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...