build thread 5-String Aria Pro II SB1000/R150-ish bass

[Prostheta]

I didn't. Mostly because the decal needs to be wet and I'm certain oil and water won't be a good mix. The solvents in the oil will dissolve the inks and surface tension from the oil will pull them around. I might try raw linseed and see if that is capable of acting as an alternative to water in mobilising the decal.

[Bizman62]

On 6/12/2020 at 11:34 PM, ScottR said:

Did he? I didn't see that, but confess that I might have missed a sentence or two here and there.

I meant that he might have done that habitually without mentioning it. Which he had not done.

[Prostheta]

You mean, I have a lot of habits that I don't mention? 

[Bizman62]

26 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

You mean, I have a lot of habits that I don't mention?

What I did mean is that among the veteran members some common practices are obvious to those who've familiarized themselves with the subject. Similarly to walking, despite having struggled to learn it you don't explain how to put one foot in turn ahead of the other. You just tell you walked.

Despite never having used a decal I've discussed the matter with fellow builders, learning the basics of hiding the film. My mistake was to assume that an advanced builder like you would automatically use the method @ScottR suggested.

 

[Prostheta]

I agree totally. That's sometimes why - when I'm writing - I feel like I'm almost preaching to the converted or something. Equally, it's easy to take something very common for granted, yes. Writing out thought processes and decision-making so that others can have a more "over the shoulder" look into what's being done is a strange way to write more often than not. 

[ScottR]

The trick is to figure out how much needs to be said, and how much is redundant, excessive, and likely to be skipped because it is just too damn much to read.

@RestorationAD and I used to debate that ...and never really came up with a good rule of thumb ,.

SR

[Prostheta]

It depends on the purpose of the build and why one wants to share I guess. Everybody brings a different angle because of that. Some bring the pop shots and keep information close to their chest, whereas I prefer a more over-the-shoulder look into decision making and how I approach solutions. That people share is humbling enough. It really is. 

[Andyjr1515]

11 hours ago, ScottR said:

The trick is to figure out how much needs to be said, and how much is redundant, excessive, and likely to be skipped because it is just too damn much to read.

I cram quite a lot of detail in mine. 

But it's not as much an altruistic desire to share tips and techniques with other builders - but more like the fact that next time I do exactly the same thing, there is absolutely no chance that I would remember what it was I did if I hadn't written it down with pictures to refer back to  

So yes, I know - it's all about me, me, me!

 

[komodo]

11 hours ago, ScottR said:

The trick is to figure out how much needs to be said, and how much is redundant, excessive, and likely to be skipped because it is just too damn much to read.

I'm bad writing and even worse speaking. When I speak, I have to be very careful of who I'm speaking to because it tends to be full download. All to often I see the glassy eyes and instantly know I've lost them. Not everyone cares about the specific type of ebony, which yeast I used and what it's idiosyncrasies are, or all the crap I built over the weekend even though they asked.

[Prostheta]

Spare tuner came in today. Fits like a glove. The small 12mm ridge at the bottom holds the tuner body nicely in place (far better than a single 14mm hole right through!) and the ferrule fits down the top smoothly. This is exactly what was needed. Precise and seated without any excess movement. The locating screw and final tightening will bring this up even further.

[ScottR]

13 hours ago, Prostheta said:

It depends on the purpose of the build and why one wants to share I guess. Everybody brings a different angle because of that. Some bring the pop shots and keep information close to their chest, whereas I prefer a more over-the-shoulder look into decision making and how I approach solutions. That people share is humbling enough. It really is. 

Your builds are very informative and read very easily. A first timer would do well to read a couple of them back to back and having done so will find himself fully armed and ready to do battle with a pile of lumber secure in the knowledge that he now knows how to build that guitar he has been dreaming of. Old veterans can find useful ideas too.

I used to do a lot more explaining. Somewhere along the way I started feeling like I was repeating myself and gradually pared down the verbiage and let the pictures tell more of the story. It wasn't a concious decision, but looking back at older threads, I can see it.

Still happy to answer all questions though.

SR

[Prostheta]

I know what you mean about repeating oneself. I guess that comes down to the idea of your audience. I try and write as though the people reading are 50% familiar but also 50% who've never seen anything I do. Forum regulars see our work in an order of chronological progression, however a lot of people come into the newest stuff right off the bat. I have to keep reminding myself of that so I don't get lazy with "ah, you know what I do here with this" when a lot of people likely pretty much don't, and end up lost.

 

2 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

But it's not as much an altruistic desire to share tips and techniques with other builders - but more like the fact that next time I do exactly the same thing, there is absolutely no chance that I would remember what it was I did if I hadn't written it down with pictures to refer back to  

For me, there's also a large degree of writing out my intentions prior to taking action. That exercise helps rattle out bugs, much the same as how something might sound good in your head but once you put it into words for somebody else, the flaws make themselves very known. Just translating it from the jumble of contradictory self-affirmation one has in their head (hey, I must always be some kind of right in my brain echo chamber!) into a reasoned proposal somebody can digest makes all the difference.

It can also look like talking to my own ego on the Internet. There is that unavoidable issue. Ah, the existential and social dread of that. Brrrr. 

[Prostheta]

So let's do a little of that psychobabble right now then

I'm trying to resolve the conundrum of bridge height without compromising the pickup height with respect to the body. Taking measurements from the pickup, the upper curved surface sits 11mm above the body at the apex (3rd string) and 9mm for the outer strings.

To be honest, this is a little close to call in a number of areas. It leaves 2-3mm between the string and pickup case surface. That's about the minimum. To achieve this, the bridge needs to deliver 14,5mm of saddle height for the 3rd string and 12,5mm for the outer strings. This is right in the centre of the range that say, a Hipshot A style bridge can provide. On paper this is all good, however having a couple of mm to play with would tip the scale in my favour so it's difficult to know how this will play out sending these specs into the wood. One very important factor is that the neck will not be straight under string tension. That little bit of (necessary) upbow should in theory reduce the burden on the saddle height requirements. At least, that's how it looks in CAD. Plotting a curve from the end of the fingerboard to a point raised 10mm above the fingerboard end at the nut (10mm is extreme to exaggerate the effect and derive a reasonable conclusion) and creating a larger air gap between the last fret and the string.

The conclusion here is that there is room for things to swing in my favour when using a relatively standard bridge with relatively standard saddle adjustment ranges. My ideal bridge configuration would be on that is locked down tight to the body for maximum coupling, eg. Hipshot A style, etc. The Hipshot D style on the other hand can have the bridge's height manipulated via mounting post height if absolutely necessary. It can also be locked down tight to the body at its lowest height setting, and has identical saddle height range to the A style. An insurance policy that I think represents the best choice.

I should be able to get the inlaying done this week (if the pearl arrives Wednesday), at which point the fingerboard can go onto the neck, and fretwork can be finished. This is the point where final measurements of fingerboard/fretwork contribution to string path height to the body can be measured with absolute accuracy, and a reasonable conclusion made on whether a bridge will need a little more height than saddles can delivery.

[Bizman62]

5 hours ago, ScottR said:

I used to do a lot more explaining. Somewhere along the way I started feeling like I was repeating myself and gradually pared down the verbiage and let the pictures tell more of the story. It wasn't a concious decision, but looking back at older threads, I can see it.

I can remember the feeling of repeating myself from the days I worked as a sales representant - the origin of my nick - despite that the listeners were rarely the same.

However, you've been here for over a decade. How long back would you think a new member would scroll your posts to find the golden nuggets you used to share back then? Agreed, you do a great job in answering questions. Explaining during the process might raise even more questions for you to answer as the first timer would find out the actual question. Answering a question is easy if you know what you're talking about, asking the right question to solve your issue can be a nightmare!

[ScottR]

31 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

I can remember the feeling of repeating myself from the days I worked as a sales representant - the origin of my nick - despite that the listeners were rarely the same.

However, you've been here for over a decade. How long back would you think a new member would scroll your posts to find the golden nuggets you used to share back then? Agreed, you do a great job in answering questions. Explaining during the process might raise even more questions for you to answer as the first timer would find out the actual question. Answering a question is easy if you know what you're talking about, asking the right question to solve your issue can be a nightmare!

All good points, and points I used to make myself. It's gone from "let me explain how I did this so you can do it too, to look at what I did." I'll have to make a point to include some more hows, whys and wherefores

SR.

[Bizman62]

10 minutes ago, ScottR said:

I'll have to make a point to include some more hows, whys and wherefores

Thanks on behalf of all of us new guys!

[Prostheta]

Today I decided to spend time reducing the fingerboard thickness to a maximum of 6mm rather than a hair over 8mm. It affects the back profile and overall thickness too much, and there's no need for that excess. This will require additional work deepening/radiusing fret slots and bringing out the pantograph to re-do inlay pocketing, but that's fine. All in good time. I just want to get the fingerboard fitted this week, that way it's far less prone to stress moving house.

[ADFinlayson]

Guitar is looking great mate, love the headstock veneer.

There is an Irish seller on ebay that sells jescar evo gold etc at a pretty decent price, I think they do also sell it in rolls by the pound if you want bulk although when I looked it was the height of lockdown and their supply was quite limited - I think quite a few of the usa factories were shut down for a period. 

I've got some white mop from G&W in portugal which isa reasonable price although it's quite different in appearance to white more I've used in the past. Compare these two inlays. The first pic is white mop from Small Wonder Music in UK

The second pic is the white mop from G&W, As you can see it's much whiter and not quite as shiny, although you can only really tell the difference when you're looking at close. The G&W stuff is quite a bit cheaper and thicker than the stuff from small wonder.

 

[ADFinlayson]

The seller Mahogany Green

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_ssn=mahogany_green_luthier_supplies&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=jescar&_sacat=0

[Prostheta]

Thanks for that! I came across Mahogany Green on eBay also. Unfortunately they didn't stock the big 57110 I prefer on basses. Thankfully the always-gracious @Andyjr1515 came through and has sent me over a couple of metres of EVO 57110, plus some pearl from Small Wonder.

I'm not that familiar with the differences in quality of MOP beyond judging appearance. Thicker might be a different part of the shell that produces heavier yield at the expense of visual flash. Difficult to say.

So I spent an hour re-cutting the inlay pockets with the pantograph. I'm certainly thinking that a better mechanism would be good, especially increasing the reach of the pilot and hence moving the cutter most distance from the fulcrum. Aluminimum would be great, as it would be possible to build in a mechanism to raise/lower the cutter in situ, same with the pilot. As it stands, the cutter needs to be set in the right place in the spindle otherwise depth varies in distance from the fulcrum inequally. Pretty annoying and time-consuming!

[Bizman62]

You mention the pantograph pretty often. I've built one out of wooden slats waaay back at 8th grade as a tool for enlarged sketches using a scriber and a pencil. An image with explanation would be nice!

[ScottR]

 

Here you go @Bizman62

SR

[Bizman62]

Now that was fast!

There's so much new happening both here and in real life that I simply don't have the time to read threads closed before my registration. Guess it's the same with many others as well unless they're trying to find some specific advice.

 

[Norris]

On 6/15/2020 at 12:31 PM, Andyjr1515 said:

But it's not as much an altruistic desire to share tips and techniques with other builders - but more like the fact that next time I do exactly the same thing, there is absolutely no chance that I would remember what it was I did if I hadn't written it down with pictures to refer back to

I do the same. At the rate of 1 build every 3 years I have no fear of sounding like I'm repeating myself though! 

[Prostheta]

Woohoo! Pearl arrived, and I had it on the pantograph within a few minutes....

 

Starting with the diagonal inlay at 12th since this is the largest and its waste are "a bonus" safety net for the rest. This was really right at the edge of what is possible from a 25mm square piece. Skim cuts done with a 2,5mm cutter - stiff enough to reduce tool deflection under working pressure - and the corresponding 7,5mm pilot which is marginally oversized at 7,65mm. It doesn't eliminate spindle runout, however it helps. I identified the centrepoint and aligned the cutter over this, then aligned the template where the pilot indicated this to be. There's a slight error in placement of my gridlines, but less than a mm at the cutter. It's significant enough to require eyeballing this way. The pearl was set in place with CA. DST (or masking tape and CA....) isn't (aren't) sufficient for this sort of work.

 

The template as placed. This is set slightly north of the corresponding cutting location.

 

Raising the pilot in the arm a mm at a time produces around a third of that in cut depth.

 

A few passes later and we're through. The inlay popped off with a craft knife. Scary since this is super fragile!