Saddle distance

[RonMay]

Is there a general agreement among luthiers which design is better. (pin less or pinned) ?

 

Ron

[Bizman62]

When I looked for the links I found some builders and players telling how much better the pinless is regarding to sound - airier or more open if I remember right. Equally there was those who had changed from pinless to pinned telling how much better the guitar now sounds - was it more focused or punchier or what, can't remember. Anyhow, both designs are being made at the moment. I suppose the popularity of the pinned version is partially due to its forgiveness. You don't have to pay that much attention to the quality of the bridge when you push a pin through it and the top and a supporting piece of hardwood underneath.

Anyhow, if you decide to go "original" and choose a pinless bridge, it will most certainly be better glued in place so it should easily last at least as long as the first one.

[RonMay]

1 hour ago, Bizman62 said:

Anyhow, if you decide to go "original" and choose a pinless bridge, it will most certainly be better glued in place so it should easily last at least as long as the first one.

I agree. As far as I know it lasted about 25+ years or so glued and bolted. I'm not going to use the screws. I just want Titebond glue original under it and on the sound board.

One good thing is that either one is larger than the footprint of the original which will help cover the scar of taking it off.

The top load bridge is .344" wider and .063" longer, and the pinned bridge is ..280" wider and .125" longer. Both are a little wider than the bridge plate, which makes me wonder if that might facilitate a belly bulge. Right now there's very little to none between the bridge and sound hole or the lower bout between the bridge and the bottom.

Of course the scale measurement would give me a overall idea of placement and overhang and intonation would tell me exactly how much it might extend beyond the bridge plate.

I don't know if that is a big concern or not. Removing the plate and gluing in a new one might be beyond my skill level. I don't know how difficult is it to replace. I imagine it's not easy to get the old one off.

 

Ron

Edited October 4, 2020 by RonMay

[RonMay]

I just ordered both and I'll make my judgement call when I can compare them in person. I can return the one I don't use.

 

Thanks again for your help. @Bizman62.

Ron

[Andyjr1515]

Unless the bridge plate has actually come unglued (and it doesn't sound like it has), then leave it in place.  Trying to get it off would risk damaging the top wood but also would likely loosen some of the key braces. 

Don't worry that the bridges overlap a touch - if you go pinned, then as long as the pins are able to go into the plate and therefore the ball-ends are able to pull directly onto the plate then it will be fine. 

If you stick with pinless, it will be fine anyway.

[Bizman62]

If the footprint of a new bridge is larger than that of the original one my logic tells me that the overall stiffness would improve. Consider that as an external piece of bracing. Also remember that there's files and bladed tools you can use to make it look more like the original.

The size of the bridge plate doesn't necessarily matter too much even if you go pinned as long as the pin holes fit within. Listen to what @Andyjr1515 says, he knows his acoustics! Further, there's an invention called the Bridge Plate Mate which is a simple piece of brass with holes glued inside the body over the bridge plate. Since your guitar doesn't have holes you can easily make one yourself by gluing a solid strip of brass on the bridge plate and drilling the pin holes through the top and the plate at the same go.

I'm tempted to suggest you to stay with the pinless, though, as the guitar was originally built and designed for one. Adding strengthening material underneath the top may change the sound - not necessarily make it worse but since we're talking about retaining memories and nostalgic values rather than improving the instrument to something it never was... You know what I mean.

[RonMay]

2 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

I'm tempted to suggest you to stay with the pinless, though, as the guitar was originally built and designed for one. Adding strengthening material underneath the top may change the sound - not necessarily make it worse but since we're talking about retaining memories and nostalgic values rather than improving the instrument to something it never was... You know what I mean.

 I sure do. I too am leaning right now towards keeping the original idea and design over changing it to pinned. it would also be a lot more straight forward to putting it on.  But I'll see when they both get here.

I do appreciate your input, thanks.

 

Ron

[RonMay]

7 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Unless the bridge plate has actually come unglued (and it doesn't sound like it has), then leave it in place.  Trying to get it off would risk damaging the top wood but also would likely loosen some of the key braces. 

Don't worry that the bridges overlap a touch - if you go pinned, then as long as the pins are able to go into the plate and therefore the ball-ends are able to pull directly onto the plate then it will be fine. 

If you stick with pinless, it will be fine anyway.

Thank you @Andyjr1515.

The bridge plate is solid. As you say, I don't really think, it will be a problem.

 

Ron

[RonMay]

Either way I go, I will have to plug the bolt holes with a dowel pin. I feel that two open holes in the bridge plate and sound board are a weak point waiting for a crack to form when string tension stress is added to them.

 

Ron

[Bizman62]

I wouldn't worry about the bolt holes. The bolts didn't strengthen the holes, vice versa they acted like levers and applied torsion which partially may have caused the original bridge to split. Glued in dowels add some strength, that's true, as they solidify the surface. A proper wood on wood glue joint is much more important, though.

[RonMay]

Today I converted a tailpiece I found on Ebay ($5) to slip over the strap button for when I get to the intonation process. It had some tiny holes but I drilled out the bottom one and dremel'd  a triangle so it would fit over the strap button. I think it's going to work just fine. 

 

 

 

 

 

Ron

[Bizman62]

That's fancier than the one a certain JR uses!

[RonMay]

The ordered bridges have arrived a little early today.

This is the "top loaded or pass through" bridge.

 

 

 

 

I'm leaning towards the ovation style.

 

I don't want to drill holes and that could be just one more variance that could go wrong.

I've been looking online for a saddle all afternoon and my mind is blown mush right about now.

The saddle has to fit the slot snugly on all all sides plus not be too short or too tall with out having to do a lot of sanding work to make it fit, and there are a kazillion saddles to choose from.

I've heard that antler is the best, the next being bone, then micarta a plastic, which is usually found on cheaper guitars, as well as other plastics.
Some are compensated and some are not.

To make things even more complicated, some of the dimensions are in inch decimals, inch fractions, and metric. So, I'm constantly finding out the equivalent inch decimal for the saddle I'm looking at, which for me, is more accurate and easier to understand.

I'm wondering what would be better. A compensated or a non compensated one. The length , I'm guessing, should have a radius from end to end. The original saddle was not compensated but did have a length wise radius.

Just for grins I measured the "scale" of the neck at the 12th fret and doubled that to find the approximate location of the bridge / saddle. The old one was about a whole 1/8 flat where it used to be. No wonder it was always hard to keep in tune. 

Right now, I'm just letting my brain rest.

Ron

Edited October 8, 2020 by RonMay

[Bizman62]

Keep it simple. Most likely you won't find a saddle that is just right so be prepared to sand it. It's smelly, I agree, and a dust mask is recommendable but you'll get it perfect.

For my purposes I've ordered cheap Chinese bone nuts and saddles which I then modify to fit. After all they're bone and ring nicely when dropped on the table so the acoustic properties should be good enough.

Excess length is easy to cut off, a simple 2$  hobby saw is the perfect tool for that. For thicknessing I'd use the good old masking tape and super glue trick and attach the bone flat on the narrow side of a piece of board - make a nice handle to run the other side over various grits of sandpaper! For getting the height to the ballpark a small bench vise/table clamp ($10) is nice, the final steps ensuring the bottom is flat you'll have to do by hand by running the edge over a file or sanding beam.

My daughter bought an old acoustic at a garage sale for a tenner. It took us a couple of hours to modify a classical guitar saddle blank to fit. She didn't like the finalizing part, it took the longest and made her finger muscles sore

[RonMay]

Thanks @Bizman62. you're absolutely right. Those are great tips and pretty much what I'll do.

Have you had any experience with the man made ivory called "Tusq" ?

Randy Schartiger, did the drop test using a bone vs. tusq and then a demonstration playing both.

The drop test starts about 4:15 or so.

 

But just to get a bridge placed and glued I think I'll take your advise and use a cheap bone saddle for intonation and positioning and figure out a final saddle later.

I know about the stink. I worked on a ranch and I usually got the smokey end of the calf during branding and burnt bone also smells very similar to that.

 

Thanks again amigo, you've always been a big help and I appreciate it.

 

Ron

[ScottR]

I actually like tusq better than bone, because it is not as grabby. My experience with bone is strings stick in the slots.

SR

[Bizman62]

Tusq may well be more slippery, that's true. Then again, I haven't suffered from sticky slots since my teens. Most likely it's because of my playing style, no half octave bends or dive bombs.

There may also be some diffence in bones. Usually you'd cook and even soak the bone in acetone or other solvents to get rid of any grease, potentially because it might get rancid and start to smell. Yet one luthier said that excess cleaning will make the bone less slippery and also more brittle.

[RonMay]

 

I used a clamp to the outside so that the gluing braces I made out of bamboo would not push up the guitar at the corner and create another problem, like I need any more.

 

 

 

 

 

Then I dry fit the bamboo to make the plan of how to get them in and how to get the glue in would work. I was using the endoscope to see what I was doing.

I wet a brush with water and went along the crack to help the glue flow in there, then proceeded to apply the glue from the bottle to kind of "force" it in.  I braced it up with the bamboo and did a little clean up with a damp artist brush. 

Now it's wait and see if it worked. *note to self, do not knock on wood for luck*

 

Ron

 

 

 

 

 

[Bizman62]

Yet another trick from the RSW cookbook, running water into the seam first so it would suck the glue in. You can't believe how happy it makes me to see that the pro tricks seem to work for a first time repair guy! Your success makes them live!

[RonMay]

Yep, @Bizman62 . It seemed to work like a charm. I had some squeeze out on the back as well as the front, so I'm pretty confident the brace is fixed for another 50 yrs. I have used a lot of what I learned from the RSW videos. I also saw him using an artist brush to kind of work it into the gap, plus, working the brace a little up and down to kind of "pump' the glue around. I'm making progress, all be it slowly, but it's getting done.

 

Ron

[Andyjr1515]

On 10/7/2020 at 5:52 PM, RonMay said:

Today I converted a tailpiece I found on Ebay ($5) to slip over the strap button for when I get to the intonation process. It had some tiny holes but I drilled out the bottom one and dremel'd  a triangle so it would fit over the strap button. I think it's going to work just fine. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ron

Great way of doing it!  (And why didn't I think of that???!!!!  )

And yes - Tusq is pretty good

[RonMay]

I am making a "file handle" for the bastard file. I've cut it down and I will mount this wood handle to it for leveling the frets when that time comes.
I'm still working on it, but I have finished the "hand hold". I sanded it down and put an instant coffee stain then I sprayed clear coat on it. ( 6 or 7 coats)
I even filed and sanded a thumb slot for grip and comfort .

I'll attach the file to the bottom of it.

This is what it looked like before.

 

StewMac sells this size for $50. Mine cost me $7.50. (the wood was free from Lowe's )

Ron

 

[Bizman62]

Nice! Instant coffee stain, wow!

When gluing the file to the handle, notice that files usually are bowed one way. You may want to glue it so that it rocks to prevent the ends hitting the frets. And of course you're going to round the ends so I'm not mentioning it.

[RonMay]

You're right. I also got that from RSW videos. He said that every file is not straigt. So, I looked and yup. I already radius the ends. When I looked at the StewMac product it showed it rounded and it made sense so as not to catch the edge of the fret. Sorry for the poor picture. The camera on my phone has a mind of it's own sometimes.

 

 

This was a good reminder for me. Had I not already done it, I easily could have missed that little detail. Thanks. @Bizman62.

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by RonMay

[RonMay]

I finished spraying the last clear coat on the fret level file hand hold and let it set over night.

This morning I glued the file to it and put it in the vise to make sure it had as much contact to each other as possible.

It turned out really nice.

After I was sure it had cured I prepared to level the frets with it.
First I adjusted the truss rod inside the neck to make the neck and fret board as straight and flat as possible. Then I took a sharpie and colored the top of the frets.
Using the leveling file, I filed across the frets from body to head stock until all the black was gone, taking as little as possible off to achieve that.
That way I know all the frets are level with each other.

I then colored the tops again and using a crowning file brought the top of the frets back to a radius on the very top. I did that until there was just a tee-tiny bit of black on the top of the frets. This assures me that the top of the frets are round and the tiny mark tells me that the frets are still at the same level.
I followed that up with some 600grit sandpaper to remove any file marks and kind of polish the frets to shiney and smooth.

I then scraped the corners where the fret meets the fret board and conditioned it with
some linseed oil.

Now the frets and fret board are ready for strings.
I'm getting closer every time I can make a check mark on the
need to do' list ........"DONE".

Ron