Nic's Tele-ish Build

[ScottR]

3 hours ago, Drak said:

Maybe @ScottR will chime in and say it a different way than I am, tho I know he knows what I'm trying to say. We both understand what it is to work With the Wood, to allow the wood to be a player in the game of your construction, to have great respect and admiration of this natural resource and not think you can make it be anything you dream up, that is a road to eventual disappointment if you don't allow the wood itself to have a say-so in the decisions.

Because, you can believe this or not, but the wood will fight you, it will fight back and things won't go smoothly. That's a sign to reconsider what's going on and instead look for the harmony in the build, where you find yourself in the 'Zen Zone' instead of the 'Warfare on Wood' zone <I kid a little, of course>. Not that reaching harmony means everything goes like buttah, but there is something to what I'm saying, there is a difference, and when you're tuned in, you can feel it, its a real thing that takes a bit of awareness to understand, and then begin to focus in on and accentuate.

'Tis very true that you have to allow the wood to have its say in what it wants to be or at least what it can be for those more literal thinking folks. I go about deciding color schemes in one of two different ways. If I've got the wood first and then decide to use it for a build, the color scheme will be based on what that piece of wood will give. Most often it is earth tones or tones related to earth tones Those colors are inherent in wood, they being organic colors and wood being organic itself. I like blue and have experimented many times coming up with a good blue scheme and am still not satisfied with the outcome. Folks like @killemall8 that have made beautiful blue guitars have my utmost respect. The second and most common way I come with a color scheme is to pick the scheme in my head first and then go get the piece of wood that will best work with that scheme. What's in my head right now is a highly figured black "appearing"  guitar. The back will feature contrasting pores and the top a multi layered dye job/tinted and burst finish. And I'll make several adjustments to my color choices/layers based on what the wood tells me.....tested on scrap first of course.

It's your guitar. You may finish it however you please. Our comments are illustrations of ways we've used to get the most the wood has to offer. It is good to know these things whether you use now or not.

SR

[Nicco]

Hey gents, thanks again for spending the time to share you knowledge on this stuff, really appreciate it.

Quote

Dye enhances Figure, not Grain (or Pores). You don't have any figure on that wood, so of course the dye isn't going to enhance anything, because there's nothing to enhance. It will, of course, dye the wood, but with very little to no enhancement of anything.

This is finally sinking in for me, I think I can see what you mean. There is some subtle grain in the wood, but there's definitely no figuring. I spose in my head before I started I thought the grain would react like figuring and the light and dark bits would accentuate, so there's where my first bit has gone awry.

Quote

If you want to enhance the look of your wood, you need to Enhance the Pores with a colored (probably black) Pore Filler (I use Timbermate).

And I'm also now starting to get this bit too. My options as I understand it are either to accept the timber as is, or to do like you've said and accentuate the pores in it. I bought a little tub of ebony filler specifically to play around with this idea.

Quote

Just from a personal standpoint, I spend a lot of time in the construction of a guitar. That is Time out of My Life, and My Life has value and is important to me. Time spent on that and not doing some other thing I enjoy instead. So by the time its coming down the line to finishing it, the color scheme I choose Must mean something personal to me. It has to Knock Me On My Ass or I will not finish it and I'll move on to another project.

This makes a lot of sense to me. With a child in my life in the last 15 months, I've learned a lot about how precious time is - I definitely don't have as much of it as I used to. I do really, really want the finished product to be something I'm really proud of, not just look like something I've whipped together for shits and giggles. 

With regards to the colour choice, my pallete has always been very much towards the cool colours, greens, blues and turquoises. I probably made a little bit too much light of the colour choice, it is actually a way I have wanted to go for a long time, and I always figured that would be a colour I would use when using a plainer type wood - not something super special to look at just plain. I spose that brings me to the next point, about reading the wood. 

When I started I thought this wood was going to be fairly ho-hum at the end of the day, and not look anything special and therefore, be a good candidate for just having a nice colour on it and be done with it. But as I've gone on it's started looking better and better to me; plus the colour didn't work how the picture in my head expected. I spose I was essentially picturing a quilted maple type effect, but along the lengthways grain lines of this timber, but that hasn't worked out. 

I think I can see that it hasn't worked quite how I was originally expecting, but I'm not quite sure which way it's telling me to go (and yes, I'm 100% on board with the concept of listening to the wood!!!). The colour isn't making it pop, it's just steam rolling it. I love the look of a black burst edging and let the timber sing (I'll chuck a photo below), but it doesn't look quite special enough to me to carry that on it's own. I could go something like a tobacco burst type colours, but I've never really clicked with that look. 

I've got to run, but I'll mull over it all a bit more, maybe try and find myself some more inspiration

 

 

 

[ScottR]

By that way that black limba top has has the pores enhanced, most likely with a black pore filler. And based on the transparency of the burst I would say that is done as tint or shader as Drak says coat layers between coats of clear.

And it looks stunning!

SR

[Nicco]

So it does, I hadn't picked up on that. Yes, it does look fantastic! 

So to make sure I'm understanding right, when you guys are talking about shader or tint coat, you specifically mean where the colour is mixed into the finish and not directly on the timber. Yeah? So that last blue test piece I did with the blue mixed into the finish over clear coats, that's in the vein of what you guys are talking about? Just want to make sure I'm not missing anything. 

I've also pulled out the colours I've got and gave them all a quick test run straight onto the timber (I know that's not what was recommended for final finish, but I just wanted to see the gist of them.

I quite like the brown on the oak, but fear it'll make the whole thing too heavy with the blackwood back half of the guitar; not much contrast between the front and back. The honey colour is brown and yellow together and I don't mind that either. 

I've sanded a new section of scrap and put down a first clear layer to test a black to brown to honey burst. And I'll use the dark grain filler on it too. 

See how that goes. It'll probably take me a week or two to get all the coats on. Ha ha

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Nicco
Wrong photo attached

[Bizman62]

1 hour ago, Nicco said:

when you guys are talking about shader or tint coat, you specifically mean where the colour is mixed into the finish and not directly on the timber.

Right.

Note that we're also talking about applying a base colour directly on wood as an option, applying a clearcoat in between and doing the burst and other effects with tinted finish.

Let's just think that you'd apply yellow on wood and after it's dry, apply blue. Obviously they'd blend into a dirty green. But if you apply a clear finish over the yellow and then apply a transparent blue tinted finish the colours will stay separated and look like you'd have a blue glass over yellow wood.

Looking at your test spots, see how some colours accentuate the dark grain better than others. I guess that's because there already is the same colour which just gets amplified or a contrasting colour which blends with the dye for a darker shade. I wonder how the brown would look when sanded back, or the yellow and orange. As the red and blue don't seem to enhance the grain as much, I suppose yellow is the key element combined with another colour - even the green looks livelier than the black or red or blue.

[ScottR]

That's a good explanation of the diferences between adding dye directly to the wood and a adding color with a toner/tint/shader coat--three terms for the asame thing. I nearly always use a combination both both. Dyeing the wood directly creates contrast as the the dye darkens the pores (open grain) much more the wood fibers running parallel to the wood surface. Figure has wood fibers running in a variety of directions which accept the dye in varying degrees depending on how much of the fibers have open pores exposed. You can increase the contrast by dyeing and sanding back. I do this all the time. @killemall8 has started mixing his dye in acetone and then wiping it back off with a clean rag soaked in acetone. That looks very similar to sanding back and is much less work.....so I've begun adding that technique to my bag of tricks as well. Tint coats do not increase contrast, but they do increase depth. Done well you can have a finish that looks like you could dive into and swim about a bit in it.

SR

[Drak]

I got the implication that Scott suggested we not steer you toward, or away from, any particular color, which I agree with, and I think it important you know what colors 'move' you, so I will not comment on your colors, that's for you to get comfortable with. Tho I see some very nice colors there, so you've got choices.

Just wanted to add in how I fine tune a color recipe. I look at it as a graph with an x and y axis, I literally see this in my head when I'm doing color selections. The x axis is left to right, and represents the color bands...yellow> orange> red> brown> green> blue> etc., you get the idea, and comes first.

The y axis is where you really start dialing things in once you have chosen your x axis, your primary color selection. Say I have chosen a lush tropical fern green and not a spearmint green (which would be more yellow, less blue), or I have a fern green dye already. So the x axis is done, I know my color. Then I dial in the strength with the y axis by dilution. Even with one color, there are many possibilities available depending on the strength. So I could choose a very pale fern green, still showing much of the original wood underneath, or a very dark and tropical fern green that renders the base wood almost meaningless.

Once I know generally what color I want (x axis), then its down to how strong I want it to be (y axis). That's how I dial a color in.

[Bizman62]

2 hours ago, ScottR said:

@killemall8 has started mixing his dye in acetone and then wiping it back off with a clean rag soaked in acetone. That looks very similar to sanding back and is much less work.....

After having read his comment I did the same with denaturated alcohol on my latest one. Worked pretty well especially in blending the burst with the bare wood.

[Nicco]

Thanks again gents for all the help on this. 

I've been in and out of the shed all day playing with this and just getting myself frustrated! 

I tried doing black as a tint coat over 3 clear coats but the water based dye with the water based finish diluted out so much it looked like some horrible, spew green grey.

I tried neatening up the blue tint coat test piece with another layer and made a mess of that as well, the finish was all streaky and varied in strength as a result of wiping on. I'm starting to wonder if the combo of water based dye and wipe on is giving me part of the heartache I'm getting at the moment? 

What sort of dye/pigment/voodoo do you guys use to get the colour in your tint coats? 

The image in my head is using a dark stain or grain filler to increase the contrast a bit, then, to steal the term bizman, have a blue glass layer over the top. I just lose any clarity I've got when the colour goes on. 

I also played around with the brown and honey colours, as well as sanded back the brown. It looks really good, but it's so similar to the back of the guitar, it just seems a bit same same to me. 

I also know why you guys don't want to lead me on colour, and appreciate that, but maybe I'm too close to see the forest for the trees; what colour schemes would you be using in this instance? 

[Bizman62]

7 hours ago, Nicco said:

What sort of dye/pigment/voodoo do you guys use to get the colour in your tint coats? 

I'd use concentrate. Basically if both your products are water based they should mix in theory. The question is if you really can add water to the finish to make it thinner? Most likely not. Use a dye that works with the recommended thinner for the finish you're using. Also, wipe-on products can act different to sprayed ones as there's some rub involved which potentially can blend with the previous layers causing unwanted effects.

A burst looking like the back and fading to natural (or something else in your palette), might puzzle the viewer for a while to find out how you've blended two woods!

Try some other colours over the sanded back flecks to see if you find something that you like!

[Nicco]

The dye I'm using reckons it's a concentrate (u-beaut brand, transtint and colortone look ridiculously expensive to get over here), and I'm not adding any extra water, that's all 1:1 with finish only. 

[Bizman62]

1 hour ago, Nicco said:

that's all 1:1 with finish only

You don't mean equal amounts, I guess, as the bottles I found are only 50 ml. You're using these, aren't you? http://www.ubeaut.com.au/dye.html

Being water based intended for bare wood may be one issue. They don't tell about diluting them to any other solvent than water, then again they say that it can be used with even a 1000 times of water.

What does the wipe-on recommend for cleaning brushes? Water or some other solvent? If other than water, then you might want to try mixing the dye to said solvent and then mix that with the wipe-on finish.

 

[Nicco]

Yeah, equal amounts. I'm mixing up 2ml total at a time, so not much. But yes, that's the ones I've got. 

I'll have to check the finish when I get home to see what it recommends

 

[Nicco]

Actually, scratch that, just found the finish online as well. Water is the only clean up recommended. 

https://www.bunnings.com.au/cabot-s-250ml-clear-water-based-cabothane-interior-varnish-gloss_p1520401?gclid=Cj0KCQjwvr6EBhDOARIsAPpqUPFmStYis12rTjaGSLrg3T4gwpaHehGFaQmLoqgmRoPT4cF-4TS-bPsaAsghEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&store=2706

[Bizman62]

Either they're not too concentrated or the bottles are pretty big for such. I've got some Crimson Stunning Stains Shots that come in 10 ml bottles and pipettes. Some fellow builders at the course had some other brands in roughly similarly sized bottles. A few drops have been enough for one layer. For comparison the ready-to-use Stunning Stains come in 150 ml bottles.

Thanks for the info about the finish. In that case mixing directly to the finish is probably best.

[ScottR]

On 5/2/2021 at 4:02 AM, Nicco said:

What sort of dye/pigment/voodoo do you guys use to get the colour in your tint coats? 

I mix transtint into lacquer thinner and that into tinned lacquer and spray it on with an airbrush. The mix is fairly transparent and I add layers until it reaches the density I want.

On 5/2/2021 at 4:02 AM, Nicco said:

I also know why you guys don't want to lead me on colour, and appreciate that, but maybe I'm too close to see the forest for the trees; what colour schemes would you be using in this instance? 

Personally, I'd probably darken the grain with filler or dark dye and sandback and then go with the honey color you've done. And I'd spray a burst like that sample pic you threw up to keep it from being same same.

Since you asked......

SR

[Nicco]

Hey guys, 

I've been busy as over the last couple of months and made good, albeit steady, progress. 

First up, I set up another test piece with about 6 or 7 different filler, dye, colour and finish combos. I've decided I'm going to stick with the blue like I'd originally planned. The way I've settled on is blue dye directly on the timber to work the grain, sanded back but leaving it heavier around the edges as a subtle burst. A couple of clear coats followed by a blue tint coat, then more clears over the top to be able to sand back and polish up. Very happy with how this looks in person. Thanks again for all the advice, really appreciate all the help with this.

I've also completely finished the body now and got my first coat of tru oil on the back and sides, the tassie blackwood came up amazingly. 

Volute on the neck is now shaped, just got to finish sanding up the neck to get it all smoothed out (pretty lumpy at the transition to the volute), plus I've pilot drilled the holes for the machine heads and glued on a face plate that I've made from the body timber. 

Next steps are to thickness the face plate (I had to hand rip it, so it's about 4mm thick at the moment), dye and finish the top and face plate, fit and fettle the binding, finish sanding up the neck, then tru oil the bejesus of the rest of the body. Then set up and play! It's been a slow old process, but on the home straight now! 

[Nicco]

Well, I'm committed to the colour choice now...

[Nicco]

More progress this week. I ended up laser cutting a logo into the headstock. I wasn't happy with the contrast on the blue so sanded it out and tried again. Looked really good on the test pieces... but still just a bit mheh on the final piece. I've got a mate who's kids make stickers, so they are going to make the logo for me in vinyl. 

I've also sanded back the dyed surfaces and started with clear coats. The clear on the body mobilised a bit of dye, so it looks a lot more even than the headstock. Both to get coloured tint coat tonight hopefully. 

[ScottR]

Wow, you were able to get some serious blue on that!

SR

[Nicco]

Yeah, it's definitely blue! Ha ha

[Nicco]

I've been busy fitting up the binding over the last week or two. I made the binding from left over qld maple from the neck which I'm hoping will look really good when I've got the neck fitted up and all the timber flows in together.

I've unfortunately made life a little hard for myself by routing the binding channels too early in the process, there was still a smidge of sanding left on the body but I hoped it wouldn't make too much difference to the depth of the channel. I was wrong, so I'm having to do quite a bit of fettling to get them flush. Lesson learnt. I'll definitely make sure the sides are finish sanded before I cut binding channels again. 

Gave everything a quick hit with turps last night to see how it looks and I'm absolutely stoked with it. Photos aren't doing the blue any justice at all; it looks almost iridescent in person! 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Nicco
Spelling

[Bizman62]

After all arguments against the blue that looks stunning even on the photos!

[Nicco]

Yeah, thanks mate. Very happy with how it's all coming together. 

And a massive thanks to all of you guys who gave advice on this as well. I learned a heap through this and there's no way I could have got it looking this good on my own. 

[Nicco]

Still just tinkering with the finishing. I've been sanding the coating down between layers now, trying to get it completely smooth for the final polish. 

Also started on fret leveling and crowning, hopefully going to finish that this weekend. 

Last thing on the go is the headstock logo. I got the white sticker from my work mate kids, but it looked way too stark for my liking. I've gone another east in the end, using aluminium powder mixed into a slurry with super glue. When I originally laser cut the logo, it left a slight depression, so now filling that.