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Problems freting an ebony fingerboard!


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Hi guys, I usually install frets onces I've glued the fingerboard to the neck, In is occasion I've decided to do before glueing it. Is an ebony fretboard with maple binding. I did the slots with stew mac japanesse saw as always and use the same fretwire. The task is that usually hammer the ends of the fret and after that Is finish the installation with my arbor press. I was surprised because is impossible to insert then into the slot, If hammer the fret gets deformed and the when enter the slot, the fretboard tends to bend.

I don't know how to solve this problem, and the cause it appeared. Never had had this issue with frets before. If someone has experienced something similar I will be very grateful if you help me. Thanks in advance.

Scorpionscar

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I normally do bound boards though I've always glued the board on prior to fretting, and always get the odd one that doesn't go. Have you checked the slots are deep enough and clean of dust and glue from the binding? have you taken the very edge of the slot off with a file? have you got your fret radius the same or tighter than the radius of the board? I'm usually guilty of forgetting at least one of the above :D

 

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I've had similar issues before.  if it's just at the ends it's likely from the glue (as mentioned) from the binding bonding with dust.  stew mac sells a ilttle fret slot cleaner

https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/types-of-tools/saws/japanese-fret-slot-cleaning-saw.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=2020-10-gp&gclid=CjwKCAjwrKr8BRB_EiwA7eFaprrc3yzG39vBL40mmfm9-9yNpdVytvWCtdi4VLt8xvdzWXefmLHQuxoCpzkQAvD_BwE

might do it for you.  haven't seen you in a while around here scorpion - nice to see you again.  cheers

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16 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

I normally do bound boards though I've always glued the board on prior to fretting, and always get the odd one that doesn't go. Have you checked the slots are deep enough and clean of dust and glue from the binding? have you taken the very edge of the slot off with a file? have you got your fret radius the same or tighter than the radius of the board? I'm usually guilty of forgetting at least one of the above :D

 

Everything is right, deep, no dust or rests of binding titebond...The problem is that the fret tang does not fit the slot. I'm doing exactly like other times and nothing odd, this time is a real nightmare...

Scorpionscar

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11 hours ago, mistermikev said:

19 I've had similar issues before.  if it's just at the ends it's likely from the glue (as mentioned) from the binding bonding with dust.  stew mac sells a ilttle fret slot cleaner

https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/types-of-tools/saws/japanese-fret-slot-cleaning-saw.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=2020-10-gp&gclid=CjwKCAjwrKr8BRB_EiwA7eFaprrc3yzG39vBL40mmfm9-9yNpdVytvWCtdi4VLt8xvdzWXefmLHQuxoCpzkQAvD_BwE

might do it for you.  haven't seen you in a while around here scorpion - nice to see you again.  cheers

Thanks for your answer! I know this tool, but don`t have in my shop, I have to order in USA (I'm from Spain) and with the COVID-19 maybe it will take a long time to receive it...I'll try to file the barbs...

During this last mounths I've been disconnected from the world in general and have no enter the forum. Thank you for your words mistermikev!!!

 

Scorpionscar

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20 hours ago, mistermikev said:

I've had similar issues before.  if it's just at the ends it's likely from the glue (as mentioned) from the binding bonding with dust.  stew mac sells a ilttle fret slot cleaner

https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/types-of-tools/saws/japanese-fret-slot-cleaning-saw.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=2020-10-gp&gclid=CjwKCAjwrKr8BRB_EiwA7eFaprrc3yzG39vBL40mmfm9-9yNpdVytvWCtdi4VLt8xvdzWXefmLHQuxoCpzkQAvD_BwE

I have one of these, can't live without it! G&W in Portugal sell them, pretty sure that's where mine came form 
https://guitarsandwoods.com/tools-by-job/cleaning-2063981406

Alternatively, Maderas barber in Spain may well sell them too. 

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7 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

Alternatively, Maderas barber in Spain may well sell them too.

Maderas Barber is in Portugal, Madinter is Spanish. As I said  in my previous post: https://www.madinter.com/en/stewmac-japanese-fret-slot-cleaning-saw.html

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18 hours ago, scorpionscar said:

This is a pic of the effect. Really don't understand what happened. I've done this a lot of times with no problems. Filed the barbs, caus was impossible to fit the tang into the slot, instead, the tang entered too fit and due to this, the fingerboard bent.

That happens with ebony boards sometimes. The fret tangs and barbs normally compress the wood on either side of the slot and that friction is what holds the fret in place. Ebony is so hard that sometimes it doesn't compress. Instead the slots spread slightly, the fret is acting like a tiny wedge. The cumulative effect of many frets give you that bent board.

SR

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6 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

Are they? When I've ordered from Maderas Barber in the past, parcels from Valencia, Spain 

No they aren't, I was wrong. For some reason I thought they were Portuguese. Anyhow, Madinter has those and Barber not as far as I could find.

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5 hours ago, ScottR said:

That happens with ebony boards sometimes. The fret tangs and barbs normally compress the wood on either side of the slot and that friction is what holds the fret in place. Ebony is so hard that sometimes it doesn't compress. Instead the slots spread slightly, the fret is acting like a tiny wedge. The cumulative effect of many frets give you that bent board.

SRR

Thank you so much for your answer ScottR, is important hearing this from you as an experienced guitar builder that you are. I almost always use ebony for my fingerboards, but it's true that normally I glue it to the neck first, this prevent this effect, however is more difficult to place the frets in the slots with the arbor press due to the neck angle, the heel etc... What do you think is better, fretting the fingerboard before or after attaching it to the neck? Thanks in advance.

 

P.D Can I glue the fingerboard to the neck or should I throw it away?

Scorpionscar

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12 minutes ago, scorpionscar said:

Thank you so much for your answer ScottR, is important hearing this from you as an experienced guitar builder that you are. I almost always use ebony for my fingerboards, but it's true that normally I glue it to the neck first, this prevent this effect, however is more difficult to place the frets in the slots with the arbor press due to the neck angle, the heel etc... What do you think is better, fretting the fingerboard before or after attaching it to the neck? Thanks in advance.

 

P.D Can I glue the fingerboard to the neck or should I throw it away?

Scorpionscar

I always fret after I've glued the fretboard to the neck but before gluing the neck to the body.

If you can put some weight on the board and it flattens without cracking, I'd do that and let it sit for a few days, then go ahead and use it. As you say, it is trying to bend like that anyway when you attach it first but cannot due the the strength of the neck.


SR

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Several years ago I saw a Crimson video where Ben Crowe talked about a similar issue. According to him the fretboard was usable.

Fretting before gluing might sit tighter than those hammered on the neck. The logic behind that is that when you're pressing the frets into tight slots the barbs carve upright grooves which theoretically might work as return paths. That can be avoided by bending the frets into a tighter radius than the fretboard, then hammering the ends and the final pressing should then make the barbs move sideways inside the slot. On fretboard only the thin bottom of the slot works as a swivel, allowing the tang and barbs "just" drop in. Extra pressure is then needed to make the barbs to indent into the sides of the slots. Lots of slots and dozens of barbs all at the same time require much more power than hammering/pressing one at a time. Thus fretting after gluing might be a better choice especially with very dense woods like ebony.

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7 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Several years ago I saw a Crimson video where Ben Crowe talked about a similar issue. According to him the fretboard was usable.

Fretting before gluing might sit tighter than those hammered on the neck. The logic behind that is that when you're pressing the frets into tight slots the barbs carve upright grooves which theoretically might work as return paths. That can be avoided by bending the frets into a tighter radius than the fretboard, then hammering the ends and the final pressing should then make the barbs move sideways inside the slot. On fretboard only the thin bottom of the slot works as a swivel, allowing the tang and barbs "just" drop in. Extra pressure is then needed to make the barbs to indent into the sides of the slots. Lots of slots and dozens of barbs all at the same time require much more power than hammering/pressing one at a time. Thus fretting after gluing might be a better choice especially with very dense woods like ebony.

Thank you so much for your explanation. Very useful in future projects. By now, I'll try to save this one and the worst of all, How I'll take in place in order to glue it to the neck. When te project is finished, I'll post the whole process.

Scorpionscar

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Today I glued the fingerboard to the neck. Due to the issue with the fingerboard, I pointed out that I wouldn't be easy to attach it to the neck, so I glued first four pieces of maple to the neck in order to help to put in place the fingerboard properly with no error. After applying the glue to both surfaces, I placed the fingerboard and counter the bow with two clamps, them I used tape for fixing the fingerboard firmly to the neck, removed the two clamps and put a radioused block that covers the whole fingerboard and applied strenght. I think I could save the fingerboard and the project, but always with the heart in the throat.

Scorpionscar

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