Fretting issue that is making me lose my career

[killemall8]

On 12/2/2020 at 7:24 AM, ScottR said:

I presume you've put a straight edge across the frets and confirmed the string path is not parallel or less than parallel, but slightly rising above the fret plane?

SR

Yes. I just re checked it again. With a straight edge from the first fret to resting on the saddles, the straightedge touches the first fret, and by the 24th there is a 3/32" gap . meaning there is a slope (in the right direction) from the first fret to the 24th.

I just dont know what to do anymore. Ive invested over 6000 in tools this year only to have this issue make me turn around and re sell it all.

[Bizman62]

While searching for potential culprits I wasn't aware of I found one article where the guy said that if the guitar still buzzes after everything has been triple checked, it's the nature of that very instrument and has to be accepted... I couldn't find the article now.

However, logically thinking there's always a reason. While searching for the above I found this one: https://www.electricherald.com/fix-fret-buzz/ . You've most likely done everything mentioned there but the last chapter caught my eye. Could it be possible that there's a very subtle twist in the problematic necks?

[killemall8]

11 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

While searching for potential culprits I wasn't aware of I found one article where the guy said that if the guitar still buzzes after everything has been triple checked, it's the nature of that very instrument and has to be accepted... I couldn't find the article now.

However, logically thinking there's always a reason. While searching for the above I found this one: https://www.electricherald.com/fix-fret-buzz/ . You've most likely done everything mentioned there but the last chapter caught my eye. Could it be possible that there's a very subtle twist in the problematic necks?

I could see that causing this issue. but the chances that 20 different necks, made of different woods, all quartersawn in 5 p-7 pieces all have a warp.
Visually i see absolutely no warp. I wish that was it then i could at least lay this to rest.

But, ive given up. a year of researching and tested literally ever. single. day. For a year. I just concede to this. I'll never figure it out and my guitars will remain inconsistent. This one will get refunded.

[Gogzs]

Late to the thread, but... can you pull the frets from one of those buzzing guitars and try to play it fretless and see if it'll buzz? I know it sounds silly, but could it be the strings themselves?

[killemall8]

On 12/10/2020 at 5:04 AM, Gogzs said:

Late to the thread, but... can you pull the frets from one of those buzzing guitars and try to play it fretless and see if it'll buzz? I know it sounds silly, but could it be the strings themselves?

Definitely not the strings themselves. Tried multiple brands, gauges and core types. its definitely fret buzz from the frets, because the last fret doesnt buzz.

[Bizman62]

@Gogzs's idea of ripping all frets off one problematic guitar has a valid point. That would effectively eliminate all fret job related issues.

If the guitar buzzed as fretless, it would tell that the problem is not related to your fretting skills. Worth trying after everything else has been triple checked.

[Gogzs]

On 12/12/2020 at 4:33 AM, killemall8 said:

Definitely not the strings themselves. Tried multiple brands, gauges and core types. its definitely fret buzz from the frets, because the last fret doesnt buzz.

This thread is such a hard read, I'm really a huge fan, specially when you go crazy with the colors (pink/blue/toxic green). Just curious, do you always use the same fret wire? And did anything significant change in your process... new blade for cutting the fret slots etc? I can not accept that this is an issue that can not be solved... wish you were from Europe, I'd pick up one of the problematic ones just to satisfy my curiosity trying to solve this.

Oh also, when you knock on the guitar body/neck with your knuckles, do you hear any rattling/buzzing?

[Bizman62]

3 minutes ago, Gogzs said:

I'm really a huge fan, specially when you go crazy with the colors (pink/blue/toxic green)

That makes two of us, I keep drooling over the photos!

[killemall8]

11 hours ago, Gogzs said:

This thread is such a hard read, I'm really a huge fan, specially when you go crazy with the colors (pink/blue/toxic green). Just curious, do you always use the same fret wire? And did anything significant change in your process... new blade for cutting the fret slots etc? I can not accept that this is an issue that can not be solved... wish you were from Europe, I'd pick up one of the problematic ones just to satisfy my curiosity trying to solve this.

Oh also, when you knock on the guitar body/neck with your knuckles, do you hear any rattling/buzzing?

Same fretwire for years. nothing else new at all. Same identical method, aside from new fret leveling beams (which are nicer than my original)

No buzzing when i knock on the guitar.

[MiKro]

Try a different set of strings, brand and size?

mk

[killemall8]

On 12/15/2020 at 10:41 AM, MiKro said:

Try a different set of strings, brand and size?

mk

Yes tried 3 different brands and 3 different gauges. Obviously the heavier gauges help in standard tuning because there is more tension, but other than that, no difference.

[MiKro]

24 minutes ago, killemall8 said:

Yes tried 3 different brands and 3 different gauges. Obviously the heavier gauges help in standard tuning because there is more tension, but other than that, no difference.

That is F'd up.

 

[Drak]

Have you ever considered taking one (or two) of them to a luthier in Albuquerque?

I would take it to Pimentel and Sons maybe, seem like pretty cool peoples from the YT's I've seen.

They've been luthiers for ~40-50 years.

Maybe a just a few short months ahead of you...

In other words, turn your Problem into an Opportunity.

 

 

[killemall8]

5 hours ago, Drak said:

Have you ever considered taking one (or two) of them to a luthier in Albuquerque?

I would take it to Pimentel and Sons maybe, seem like pretty cool peoples from the YT's I've seen.

They've been luthiers for ~40-50 years.

Maybe a just a few short months ahead of you...

In other words, turn your Problem into an Opportunity.

 

 

They are the only ones in town, and they dont really offer any other services anymore, from what i hear. I cant check it out though

[pan_kara]

I've had these mystery buzzes and strange sounding strings in the past. Some still unsolved I even had a guitar recently where one string would have the 12th fret harmonic over the 13th fret almost. (turned out it wasn't my sloppy building, it was the string itself). But I never had an issue this severe so I can only imagine how frustrating it must be..

Here's my suggestion: you have to make sure if this is the following fret(s) that's buzzing or something else. (bridge, fret seated loose, truss rod resonating, flat crown) I know you checked all those things, so all evidence would point to "following fret"... Including having no buzz on the last fret. But if it was that, it should go away when raising action, so there's our mystery right there.

What I'd try: pull out just the last fret, see if the last-1 fret still buzzes. Maybe continue for a few more frets. If the buzzing disappears, then we have a problem with neck-string-fret geometry. If it doesn't, then it's something else.

I measured some guitars that I have at hand and in general the way they're set up is that when I fret a note at the 12th fret, the clearance between the unwound strings and the 13th fret is around 0.10-0.15mm (.003-.004 inches) with no buzz

[10pizza]

man! that is frustrating! Had an issue with a setup of a Strat once which was very hard to get properly intonated on the first couple of frets, drove me crazy getting things right!

your builds are awesome. Love those in your face colors.

I have a similar problem with my first build, I always suspected the truss-rod to be the culprit, but then again, if you have a tightened trussrod, would it be able to still buzz?

Will have a further look at the guitar in question and see if I can find anything else while pondering over your issue.

 

I can't imagine with all the people here that we can not find out the cause of this. 

 

and kudo's for reaching out here. It's great that we have a platform like this where people are willing to help respectfully.

 

 

[10pizza]

3 hours ago, 10pizza said:

have a similar problem with my first build, I always suspected the truss-rod to be the culprit, but then again, if you have a tightened trussrod, would it be able to still buzz?

took a quick look at the particular guitar and tested by tapping the neck to see if there's anything rattling/buzzing and there is. 

Given that you have the same problem with several guitars, my problem-solving-guts would say there's something in the way you build them that is causing the problem and not the hardware or setup. If you use the same router bit and truss-rods on those guitars it might explain why they all have the same problem. The cause of it happening over time might be that they've been held in place with some excess glue maybe at first and now have come loose? 

here''s a vid describing how to possibly fix that. I'll try this on my guitar and see if it solves my problem. Maybe you could try this on one of yours as well?

 

 

[Bizman62]

Good find @10pizza! I've seen the trick of putting a few small rolls of masking tape glue side out on the truss rod before gluing the fretboard but obviously that's not an option after the fingerboard is in place. Also, the silicone will address sideways movement as well.

[Invader Zim]

OP check your inbox.

[Bizman62]

I just watched a Jerry Rosa video about a buzzing octave mandolin. It buzzed when certain notes were played but it also rattled when the headstock was tapped. After having checked most everything mentioned here he finally noticed that the tuner buttons were more or less loose. Simple as that.

Most likely not what causes your issue but worth knowing.

[mistermikev]

could it be that you've managed to consistently make the most resonant guitars ever?  strings resonate so well they rattle on the frets?  (congrats!)

i dunno... just spit balling here.  I def feel your pain and truly wish I could help.  I think when you've tried everything you think it COULD be... maybe start looking at the things you think it COULDN'T possibly be.  sometimes just trying something stupid might stumble you into something that gets you going back in the right direction. 

In the interest of offering something constructive... can you put your neck on someone elses' body?  your body with someone elses neck?  what else can you start changing up?  perhaps build a guitar going in a completely different direction than you are used to to try and scare out the issue?  build a run of the mill strat knock off.  don't use the sm nut/tuners/truss-rod/pickukps.  even things you think would have nothing to do with it... don't use the same knobs.  different pots.  I know... "how in the world could the pots I use have anything to do with string buzz"... they probably couldn't... but idunno... maybe because of those pots you cut your control cavity different and you realize you were creating a sizemic megaphone under the strings.  if you are doing string string thru maybe do something different there?  surface mount? honestly the fact that the strings are buzzing the frets despite being high off the board... while it doesn't sound pleasant... it suggests you are getting some wicked string movement.  the fact that it stops at the last fret would surely suggest it HAS to be something with the frets/neck/relief... but that right there is the thing you thing it MUST be... what if you put a mega high nut on the guitar?  Maybe the string is rattling BEHIND the finger?

sooner or later you are going to find the answer but I have to believe you just have to keep trying things until the direction of the wind changes.  so difficult when the frustration level is so high and you just keep going in circles... so stop going in circles and try anything you haven't looked at already.

i hope there is something here you can use but more than that I hope you get out of the place your in and rise above this asap.

[OneArmedNoodler]

I mean, NM is dry as a popcorn fart. I lived in Moriarty for a while, the only time in my life I've had to use lotion. And I lived in Salt Lake City for 17 years.

[Bizman62]

1 minute ago, OneArmedNoodler said:

NM is dry as a popcorn fart.

Good point.

But what about mail order wood? I've seen ebony fretboard blanks bought from a Spanish well known tonewood company packed in cling film, still dripping wet. Literally.

I'm sure that the OP is aware of this issue. The question is if the wood has stabilized long enough to the NM climate.

[Bjorn.LaSanche]

Have you checked to ensure none of the hardware is cracked along the string path.  Especially check the face side of the headstock tuner collars.  Mainly along the threaded portion.  I had a bass this year come in that was making similar buzzing as well as tuning instability.  The string that wouldn’t stay tuned, the collar to the tuner was cracked along the threads and when I noticed that collar was loose and tried to tighten it the collar failed. Necessitating a replacement.  Not saying the issue is that, but it’s something I had not come across before the collar was chattering when the string would vibrate.    Just something uncommon to check and eliminate as a source. 

[Bjorn.LaSanche]

Last idea is that you mention that the issue is on the instruments you built this year?  If it is fret buzz, we’re all the guitars built using the Sam batch of fret wire?  Could you have gotten a batch of bad wire where the size of the wire is off somewhere or the tang is separating from the fret after installation?