Fretting issue that is making me lose my career

[killemall8]

On 1/23/2021 at 2:18 PM, Bjorn.LaSanche said:

Have you checked to ensure none of the hardware is cracked along the string path.  Especially check the face side of the headstock tuner collars.  Mainly along the threaded portion.  I had a bass this year come in that was making similar buzzing as well as tuning instability.  The string that wouldn’t stay tuned, the collar to the tuner was cracked along the threads and when I noticed that collar was loose and tried to tighten it the collar failed. Necessitating a replacement.  Not saying the issue is that, but it’s something I had not come across before the collar was chattering when the string would vibrate.    Just something uncommon to check and eliminate as a source. 

This has happened on nearly 30 guitars, all different hardware, pickups, shapes, headstock shapes, headstock design (angled and fender style) different control cavity shapes, pickups, pots, and hardware.

On 1/8/2021 at 9:04 AM, 10pizza said:

took a quick look at the particular guitar and tested by tapping the neck to see if there's anything rattling/buzzing and there is. 

Given that you have the same problem with several guitars, my problem-solving-guts would say there's something in the way you build them that is causing the problem and not the hardware or setup. If you use the same router bit and truss-rods on those guitars it might explain why they all have the same problem. The cause of it happening over time might be that they've been held in place with some excess glue maybe at first and now have come loose? 

here''s a vid describing how to possibly fix that. I'll try this on my guitar and see if it solves my problem. Maybe you could try this on one of yours as well?

 

 

Definitely not a truss rod rattle. Its easy to tell the difference between truss rod rattle and fret buzz.

 

On 1/8/2021 at 2:25 AM, pan_kara said:

I've had these mystery buzzes and strange sounding strings in the past. Some still unsolved I even had a guitar recently where one string would have the 12th fret harmonic over the 13th fret almost. (turned out it wasn't my sloppy building, it was the string itself). But I never had an issue this severe so I can only imagine how frustrating it must be..

Here's my suggestion: you have to make sure if this is the following fret(s) that's buzzing or something else. (bridge, fret seated loose, truss rod resonating, flat crown) I know you checked all those things, so all evidence would point to "following fret"... Including having no buzz on the last fret. But if it was that, it should go away when raising action, so there's our mystery right there.

What I'd try: pull out just the last fret, see if the last-1 fret still buzzes. Maybe continue for a few more frets. If the buzzing disappears, then we have a problem with neck-string-fret geometry. If it doesn't, then it's something else.

I measured some guitars that I have at hand and in general the way they're set up is that when I fret a note at the 12th fret, the clearance between the unwound strings and the 13th fret is around 0.10-0.15mm (.003-.004 inches) with no buzz

Ive tried that many times. All of them are consistent. They dont buzz on the last fret but buzz instantly on the second to last fret. Even if i level down ONLY the last fret significantly.

 

On 1/24/2021 at 6:40 PM, Bjorn.LaSanche said:

Last idea is that you mention that the issue is on the instruments you built this year?  If it is fret buzz, we’re all the guitars built using the Sam batch of fret wire?  Could you have gotten a batch of bad wire where the size of the wire is off somewhere or the tang is separating from the fret after installation?

5 different batches of fretwire. 3 different sizes, 3 materials. Standard, evo and stainless.

 

On 1/14/2021 at 4:14 PM, mistermikev said:

could it be that you've managed to consistently make the most resonant guitars ever?  strings resonate so well they rattle on the frets?  (congrats!)

i dunno... just spit balling here.  I def feel your pain and truly wish I could help.  I think when you've tried everything you think it COULD be... maybe start looking at the things you think it COULDN'T possibly be.  sometimes just trying something stupid might stumble you into something that gets you going back in the right direction. 

In the interest of offering something constructive... can you put your neck on someone elses' body?  your body with someone elses neck?  what else can you start changing up?  perhaps build a guitar going in a completely different direction than you are used to to try and scare out the issue?  build a run of the mill strat knock off.  don't use the sm nut/tuners/truss-rod/pickukps.  even things you think would have nothing to do with it... don't use the same knobs.  different pots.  I know... "how in the world could the pots I use have anything to do with string buzz"... they probably couldn't... but idunno... maybe because of those pots you cut your control cavity different and you realize you were creating a sizemic megaphone under the strings.  if you are doing string string thru maybe do something different there?  surface mount? honestly the fact that the strings are buzzing the frets despite being high off the board... while it doesn't sound pleasant... it suggests you are getting some wicked string movement.  the fact that it stops at the last fret would surely suggest it HAS to be something with the frets/neck/relief... but that right there is the thing you thing it MUST be... what if you put a mega high nut on the guitar?  Maybe the string is rattling BEHIND the finger?

sooner or later you are going to find the answer but I have to believe you just have to keep trying things until the direction of the wind changes.  so difficult when the frustration level is so high and you just keep going in circles... so stop going in circles and try anything you haven't looked at already.

i hope there is something here you can use but more than that I hope you get out of the place your in and rise above this asap.

Ive tried nearly all of those. From Different headstock design (non angled) Different bridge types, different hardware all together. Different size and material of frets (evo, stainless and standard) All enitirely different woods,
Ive tried a high nut actually. I thought the same thing! It still buzzes the same.

 

On 1/8/2021 at 2:25 AM, pan_kara said:

I measured some guitars that I have at hand and in general the way they're set up is that when I fret a note at the 12th fret, the clearance between the unwound strings and the 13th fret is around 0.10-0.15mm (.003-.004 inches) with no buzz

Measured one guitar that has horrible buzz, and with super high, 2.00 mm action at the 12th, when fretted, has a .08mm gap between the string and the 13th.

[mistermikev]

the thing that stands out to me in your post is .08mm... that's pretty low no?  I mean, I like low action myself... and don't bother to measure ever... but I thought 1-1.5mm is good - def not high.  I'm pretty sure my jem is in that range... and it plays great.  If you manhandle that guitar it will buzz but it's not fret buzz - it's string rattle.  If you play soft/fast - no buzz. so if you are getting 2mm at the nut/24th and .08mm at the 13th... sounds like the issue is too much relief.  I would think relaxing the bow  and doing some fall off at the 17-24 would allow the string some room to vibrate w/o hitting the frets.  perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.  

sorry, saw my mistake - "when fretted .08mm"

[Gogzs]

I'm gonna lean myself now faaaaar out of the window, I don't wanna question your guitar building skills because I have only the highest admirations for the stuff you pull off, but in what relation is the fretboard to the body. Are they perpendicular or is there a break angle? Because if there is none, and the bridge is too high and you try to lower the action by tightening the truss rod, you will get buzz at pretty much every fret except perhaps the few highest ones.

This is the roughest of the rough sketches of what I'm trying to talk about. There are things that aren't the most accurate representation of a good setup, but just to give a visual representation of what I mean, consider I use paint for all of my sketches. And again, I'm sure you're aware of all this, and probably take better care of it than I'll ever do, but this issue is driving me personally nuts, because I can't accept the fact that those insanely sexy instruments have such a massive flaw. 

[killemall8]

4 hours ago, mistermikev said:

the thing that stands out to me in your post is .08mm... that's pretty low no?  I mean, I like low action myself... and don't bother to measure ever... but I thought 1-1.5mm is good - def not high.  I'm pretty sure my jem is in that range... and it plays great.  If you manhandle that guitar it will buzz but it's not fret buzz - it's string rattle.  If you play soft/fast - no buzz. so if you are getting 2mm at the nut/24th and .08mm at the 13th... sounds like the issue is too much relief.  I would think relaxing the bow  and doing some fall off at the 17-24 would allow the string some room to vibrate w/o hitting the frets.  perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.  

sorry, saw my mistake - "when fretted .08mm"

Sorry, it was late and i might not have been as clear as i needed to be.

That is with 2.0mm action, unfretted at the 12th. which i consider very high action.

That is also with almost no relief in the 7-9th fret area

3 hours ago, Gogzs said:

I'm gonna lean myself now faaaaar out of the window, I don't wanna question your guitar building skills because I have only the highest admirations for the stuff you pull off, but in what relation is the fretboard to the body. Are they perpendicular or is there a break angle? Because if there is none, and the bridge is too high and you try to lower the action by tightening the truss rod, you will get buzz at pretty much every fret except perhaps the few highest ones.

This is the roughest of the rough sketches of what I'm trying to talk about. There are things that aren't the most accurate representation of a good setup, but just to give a visual representation of what I mean, consider I use paint for all of my sketches. And again, I'm sure you're aware of all this, and probably take better care of it than I'll ever do, but this issue is driving me personally nuts, because I can't accept the fact that those insanely sexy instruments have such a massive flaw. 

I appreciate the drawing.
I never try to lower the action with the truss rod. that is setup 101.
And actually, almost all of my bridges are recessed into the body. I setup my guitars with almost no relief in the middle of the neck.

[mistermikev]

43 minutes ago, killemall8 said:

Sorry, it was late and i might not have been as clear as i needed to be.

That is with 2.0mm action, unfretted at the 12th. which i consider very high action.

That is also with almost no relief in the 7-9th fret area

 

nah, I think you were clear... that's on me... I'm just not good with reading... and letters... or numbers... concepts are a challenge for me... hehe!

[Gogzs]

1 hour ago, killemall8 said:

I appreciate the drawing.
I never try to lower the action with the truss rod. that is setup 101.
And actually, almost all of my bridges are recessed into the body. I setup my guitars with almost no relief in the middle of the neck.

Yeah I thought so, I was pretty sure your finishing game wasn't the only thing that is top notch on these guitars. But since we went through the craziest things, I thought this problem might be hiding in plain sight. Blah... 

[killemall8]

So just an update.
Ive since put together 4 guitars, and they all still do it as well. Same identical problem.
The low strings seem to be even worse. A simple power chord on any of the low strings dont even ring out.

Im done for.

[mistermikev]

On 3/6/2021 at 4:59 PM, killemall8 said:

So just an update.
Ive since put together 4 guitars, and they all still do it as well. Same identical problem.
The low strings seem to be even worse. A simple power chord on any of the low strings dont even ring out.

Im done for.

man... what a frustrating mess.  all one can do is keep trying things.  perhaps under tension you should take a notched straight edge and see what's happening with the curvature?  maybe it has something to do with neck profile - have you tried some thicker profiles at all?  just spitballing.  u r a great guitar maker... you just have to get out of this pit.  think of how good you'll feel when you conquer.  I feel like you just need to do something to push yourself in a different direction... maybe build a bass or do an extended scale baritone or fretless?  maybe add carbon fibre... just anything to jump out of the rut you are in.  most importantly... chin up. 

[killemall8]

19 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

man... what a frustrating mess.  all one can do is keep trying things.  perhaps under tension you should take a notched straight edge and see what's happening with the curvature?  maybe it has something to do with neck profile - have you tried some thicker profiles at all?  just spitballing.  u r a great guitar maker... you just have to get out of this pit.  think of how good you'll feel when you conquer.  I feel like you just need to do something to push yourself in a different direction... maybe build a bass or do an extended scale baritone or fretless?  maybe add carbon fibre... just anything to jump out of the rut you are in.  most importantly... chin up. 

I always set up with a notched straight edge. I can get it perfectly straight with no gaps anywhere, using the straight edge. Then i ad just a sliver of relief in.

I also did carbon fiber on 2 of the necks, same result.

[mistermikev]

1 minute ago, killemall8 said:

I always set up with a notched straight edge. I can get it perfectly straight with no gaps anywhere, using the straight edge. Then i ad just a sliver of relief in.

I also did carbon fiber on 2 of the necks, same result.

so... when you used the straight edge... strings were on?

[killemall8]

23 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

so... when you used the straight edge... strings were on?

i do both. Check before stringing up, then after.

[mistermikev]

33 minutes ago, killemall8 said:

i do both. Check before stringing up, then after.

wow, stumped.

[curtisa]

I've asked before, but is there any possibility you're making necks so stiff that they're hard to control where the relief is in them when they're under tension? Carbon fibre reinforcement and multilam necks made from all sorts of exotic and hard species might look the biz, but if they're so rigid they end up straight as an arrow for most of their length it might be exacerbating the issue.

[killemall8]

10 hours ago, curtisa said:

I've asked before, but is there any possibility you're making necks so stiff that they're hard to control where the relief is in them when they're under tension? Carbon fibre reinforcement and multilam necks made from all sorts of exotic and hard species might look the biz, but if they're so rigid they end up straight as an arrow for most of their length it might be exacerbating the issue.

I can definitely put relief into them. Most of my necks are thin, .8" at the first fret, .85 at the 12th.

with the notched straight edge, i can see even relief develop and disappear, when adjusting the truss rod.

There is a possibility that maybe it isnt creating relief evenly? My only option left is to level under string tension

[curtisa]

3 hours ago, killemall8 said:

There is a possibility that maybe it isnt creating relief evenly?

That's what I was thinking. If your necks are so stiff that the only place you can make them curve is within the first handful of frets from the nut you might come up against buzzing issues all over. Dialing in relief would even mask the issue, as you'd still get your requisite gap appearing at the midpoint of the neck when you measured it. but the majority of the neck would remain too straight to allow the strings to clear the frets when depressed. If you use double-action truss rods and you find yourself having to excessively reverse the truss rod to force the neck into relief, you may also find you're adding unpredictable humps and dips in the neck as the rod starts trying to squeeze itself together under tension.

 

4 hours ago, killemall8 said:

My only option left is to level under string tension

Or go back to basics and try experimenting with more pliable neck materials.

[Bizman62]

15 hours ago, killemall8 said:

There is a possibility that maybe it isnt creating relief evenly? My only option left is to level under string tension

I've read an article where they discussed carving a relief to the actual fingerboard to get the most uniform playability along with the lowest action. It even read that the carve can be deeper on the bass side. Unfortunately the article is in Finnish only.

[KeithHowell]

Are you using a Conical/Compound radius on the fretboard?

[killemall8]

13 hours ago, KeithHowell said:

Are you using a Conical/Compound radius on the fretboard?

no, never have

[killemall8]

15 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

I've read an article where they discussed carving a relief to the actual fingerboard to get the most uniform playability along with the lowest action. It even read that the carve can be deeper on the bass side. Unfortunately the article is in Finnish only.

I have actually done that exact thing for around 6 years

[Bizman62]

8 hours ago, killemall8 said:

I have actually done that exact thing for around 6 years

You've obviously done your homework well! The article was published on paper back in 1999, telling that the carving is not a new invention but it's rarely seen outside bespoke instruments built by highly experienced luthiers.

Is it possible that you've started overdoing the carving? A bug crap having drawn an extra decimal dot in the wrong place or something similar?

[killemall8]

13 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

You've obviously done your homework well! The article was published on paper back in 1999, telling that the carving is not a new invention but it's rarely seen outside bespoke instruments built by highly experienced luthiers.

Is it possible that you've started overdoing the carving? A bug crap having drawn an extra decimal dot in the wrong place or something similar?

I mean its possible. I usually add the relief that would normally be created by using the truss rod

[Bizman62]

12 hours ago, killemall8 said:

I usually add the relief that would normally be created by using the truss rod

According to the article the carved relief is even better than the one created by the truss rod as it a) can be made asymmetric i.e. more on the bass side and b) the location is better as the truss rod adds relief to the entire neck while the carve should have the deepest point at the 5th fret.

That said, I've never done that myself and I've never experienced the issues you have despite having the action low. The carved relief on a guitar should be about 1.5mm at the most so raising the bridge and loosening the truss rod as you've already done should easily fix the issue with the cost of higher action. So most likely not that either...

[Ig9]

I definitely have less experience than all of y’all but here’s a few things I can think of to try to diagnose  the problem:

can you get access to a high speed camera to try to film the string vibrating and watch it in slow motion? They’re expensive but maybe you can find someone in your area who has one or a university that has one and would let you use it so you could see exactly where the string is hitting something to make it buzz. Another thing I’d do is compare the geometry of your fretboard to one that doesn’t buzz. Like make a spreadsheet and use a caliper to measure the distance from the top of each fret to the bottom of the string for every fret on both your guitar and on one that doesn’t buzz. Then if there’s a big difference at any of the frets, try to make the distance on your guitar match the reference guitar by leveling or sanding or whatever. If they match and there’s still buzzing, then the problem is probably not the geometry of the fretboard but could be happening at the fret you’re playing. I wonder if it’s a fret crowning issue, I’ve seen some bad reviews on fret crowning files, and maybe crowning frets the old school way with a triangle file would help. Best of luck. 

[Prostheta]

On 3/8/2021 at 10:27 PM, curtisa said:

That's what I was thinking. If your necks are so stiff that the only place you can make them curve is within the first handful of frets from the nut you might come up against buzzing issues all over. Dialing in relief would even mask the issue, as you'd still get your requisite gap appearing at the midpoint of the neck when you measured it. but the majority of the neck would remain too straight to allow the strings to clear the frets when depressed. If you use double-action truss rods and you find yourself having to excessively reverse the truss rod to force the neck into relief, you may also find you're adding unpredictable humps and dips in the neck as the rod starts trying to squeeze itself together under tension. Or go back to basics and try experimenting with more pliable neck materials.

 

I would agree with this as a better way of constructing necks. There's been a constant move towards stiffer and stiffer necks over the last couple of decades at least; mostly down to laminating necks with showy wood, marketing wankateers hawking titanium-this and graphite-that in commercial instruments, etc. I would say that its gotten to the point where these practices are now so normalised that builders see necks without stiff laminates or sixty graphite I-beams as being inferior on some intangible level. Because it FEELS inferior. We're prone to all manner of foibles, misconceptions and solipsistic perceptions in our instruments and it was only a matter of time before lamination and reinforcement became conflated with some higher standard. They're just strategies for use in certain circumstances that may require them....a thin Wizard-y neck, or a six-string bass, etc.

I've never liked double-acting truss rods. They seem to have a use that shouldn't exist in the first place. A neck designed with a reasonable level of compliance for the end use should function within the working range of a single-acting truss rod, or the same range in a double-acting rod.

I can't comment on Luis' necks being overly stiff or whether this might even be a factor in his ongoing woes or not. I do think however, that it's an area of instrument planning and design that has been warped so far that our minds are trained to see laminated necks as "better" whilst simultaneously having been dialled out from the functional basics of how we engineer an instrument in the first place.

[Charlie H 72]

4 hours ago, Ig9 said:

I wonder if it’s a fret crowning issue, I’ve seen some bad reviews on fret crowning files, and maybe crowning frets the old school way with a triangle file would help. Best of luck. 

This seems plausible. Try leveling a problem guitar but not crowning and see if it still buzzes. if that’s the case then it’s a crowning problem and you can go from there. Maybe take the fretwork backwards step by step-level to see if it’s a crowning issue, then pull frets to see if it’s a neck issue, etc. and see how far back you have to go. Or the reverse-string an instrument at every step of the process and find out where the buzzing starts