so... have you ever: used flatsawn for a fretboard?

[mistermikev]

so... have this long time friend of mine - he's a cop.  been asking me to build him something for a while and I've given in... least I can do to thank him for his service.  So... one of the things I thought would be cool would be to use the sm material for a top as the fretboard and headstock overlay.  I'm going to use birdseye for the actual neck - some really rock hard birdseye so that should add some serious rigidity to a 25.5" scale neck.  I have some 3/4" x 12" flamed maple that he likes... so was thinking I'd resaw it for a top and have enough left over for a fretboard and headstock overlay.  I'm half considering bookmatching the fretboard cause I think that'd be really cool... to just have it bookmatched all the way up the neck. 

I am aware that typically fretboards are made from quartersawn materials, and while I'm sure someone has done flatsawn... just wondering if any one here has any experiences doing that and what they learned from it?

I  imagine one stumbling block is - you don't want to resaw it and have it sitting around too long - way too prone to bend/cup/twist.  Other pitfalls you can think of?

[Bizman62]

I haven't done flat sawn fretboards but I know how flat sawn flooring wears and that is not nice. Agreed, pine is softer than maple but we're not wearing shoes upstairs where our bedrooms are. Several splinters have found their way through the socks since the Osmo oil wax wore out in places like in front of the toilet or in the kids' room.

[mistermikev]

1 hour ago, Bizman62 said:

I haven't done flat sawn fretboards but I know how flat sawn flooring wears and that is not nice. Agreed, pine is softer than maple but we're not wearing shoes upstairs where our bedrooms are. Several splinters have found their way through the socks since the Osmo oil wax wore out in places like in front of the toilet or in the kids' room.

interesting... you are saying quareter sawn wears different?  I had not considered that.  Honestly have zero wear on the fretboard of any of my guitars... but I imagine folks with long fingernails have more of an issue with that.  Something to consider anyway.  thanks for the reply.

[Bizman62]

Yep, quarter sawn is much harder. Slab sawn will peel by the growth rings as shown in the image below:

The darker wood is the denser winter wood and the softer summer growth will both wear, dry and compress away.

[mistermikev]

3 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Yep, quarter sawn is much harder. Slab sawn will peel by the growth rings as shown in the image below:

The darker wood is the denser winter wood and the softer summer growth will both wear, dry and compress away.

hmm, did not realize this property of flat sawn.  I guess it makes sense... stack of papers flat vs stack of papers on end. 

[mistermikev]

so I've read around a bit on mylespaul, thegearpage, acousticguitar forum, few others.... from what I have read it is not at all uncommon.  I guess birdseye is ONLY flatsawn so... any birdseye fingerboard you see is flatsawn.  At this point I'd like a couple more opinions to either dissuade me or push me forward so I'm calling you out: @Andyjr1515 @MiKro @curtisa @ScottR @Prostheta @komodo and whatever other devil's will be summoned - what say you?

 

[curtisa]

Zounds! What on earth makes you think I'm some kind of expert? Although, I'm kinda tickled that you'd think such a thing. Silly you...

I've used birdseye maple for a fret board precisely once. I don't recall anything particularly unusual about its properties or working that made me think I'd never use it again or do something differently next time. Maple is an imported species for me though, so I don't use it terribly often.

You got me curious enough to go to the workshop and check my modest collection of fret board stock. It's generally a mixture of flatsawn and quarter. The only piece that looks appreciably warped is an old board (flatsawn) I steamed off a failed neck, and I'm willing to bet that it looks the way it does because I wasn't being gentle trying to get it off, rather than it due to being flatsawn in the first place. Another piece I have is essentially a flatsawn piece of decking timber, a portion of which ended up on a build I did some time ago that has ended up having the most stable neck I've done to date. Make of that what you will.

Based on the above very small anecdotal evidence maybe you could theorise that the original milling orientation of the log matters less compared to how well it dried? Flatsawn may have a tendency to cup and warp more as it dries, but once it reaches that equilibrium is it any more stable or strong? Dunno.

I suppose you could even argue that if you took a flatsawn maple post with a 3" x 3" cross section, there's nothing stopping you rotating the post 90 degrees and sawing off your fret boards and calling the resultant pieces quartersawn. Afterall, the growth rings are no longer running parallel to the wide, flat surface of the fret board and are now perpendicular to it, which is pretty much the definition of what quartersawn stock is.

[mistermikev]

55 minutes ago, curtisa said:

Zounds! What on earth makes you think I'm some kind of expert? Although, I'm kinda tickled that you'd think such a thing. Silly you...

I've used birdseye maple for a fret board precisely once. I don't recall anything particularly unusual about its properties or working that made me think I'd never use it again or do something differently next time. Maple is an imported species for me though, so I don't use it terribly often.

You got me curious enough to go to the workshop and check my modest collection of fret board stock. It's generally a mixture of flatsawn and quarter. The only piece that looks appreciably warped is an old board (flatsawn) I steamed off a failed neck, and I'm willing to bet that it looks the way it does because I wasn't being gentle trying to get it off, rather than it due to being flatsawn in the first place. Another piece I have is essentially a flatsawn piece of decking timber, a portion of which ended up on a build I did some time ago that has ended up having the most stable neck I've done to date. Make of that what you will.

Based on the above very small anecdotal evidence maybe you could theorise that the original milling orientation of the log matters less compared to how well it dried? Flatsawn may have a tendency to cup and warp more as it dries, but once it reaches that equilibrium is it any more stable or strong? Dunno.

I suppose you could even argue that if you took a flatsawn maple post with a 3" x 3" cross section, there's nothing stopping you rotating the post 90 degrees and sawing off your fret boards and calling the resultant pieces quartersawn. Afterall, the growth rings are no longer running parallel to the wide, flat surface of the fret board and are now perpendicular to it, which is pretty much the definition of what quartersawn stock is.

I deeply respect yours and many opinions here... so much so that I will frequently listen to what you have to say... I mean... it's a pretty low bar because you just have to know more than me!  haha!  Seriously tho... group knowledge isn't always stronger than individual knowledge... but solid individual knowledge peppered with group knowledge is ALWAYS stronger than almost any individual knowledge... at least in my experience.

and you came through... because I hadn't even thought to go check my stack of fretboards... and there are indeed some qtr, some 'sorta qtr' and some flat sawn.  one of the flat sawn is twisted a hair... and it is birseye.  despite that I'm inclined to think flatsawn would be fine as long as you cut it, seal the edges, let it sit w both faces in contact with air... and give it a week or two to move.

I think you are right about the dry thing.  thinking about it... fender necks were always one piece and flatsawn.  Given a choice between two identical pieces but one qtr sawn I think I'd go qtr but I don't think I'll shy away from flat at this point.  

my mind exploded reading that last part... so... eep... oop... bla... does not compute.  I get it tho... even qtr sawn is only relatively qtr sawn as grain is never perfectly perpendicular.  that said... as you get further and further away from perpendicular grain... there is more tendency to move albiet maybe fairly mitigated in well dried and seasoned  wood.

[MiKro]

I have used birdseye before, No problem. Now think about Fender. They used flat sawn boards for necks with a skunk stripe. Think about what I just said.

mk

[curtisa]

3 hours ago, mistermikev said:

I deeply respect yours and many opinions here... so much so that I will frequently listen to what you have to say... I mean... it's a pretty low bar because you just have to know more than me!  haha!  Seriously tho... group knowledge isn't always stronger than individual knowledge... but solid individual knowledge peppered with group knowledge is ALWAYS stronger than almost any individual knowledge... at least in my experience.

You big tease.

For the record, I'm not saying that any old flatsawn piece turned 90 degrees makes it quartersawn. There may be legitimate reasons why a truly quartersawn piece from a log would behave differently that I'm not aware of. But thinking about it in my rattly old head there doesn't appear to be much difference between the two. Another way to look at the interchangability between flat vs quarter, if you were to grab a layers of flatsawn stock from the log slicing operation, the slab that ran dead through the middle would be quartersawn at the edges.

Properly quartersawn timber is expensive in comparision to flatsawn because it's wasteful. If you were to genuinely quartersaw a log into fret board shaped chunks, you'd have to rotate the log around its axis and cut everything in a bicycle spoke wheel kinda pattern. Dividing the circular log cross section up into rectangular chunks radiating out from the centre means that you can't maximise the usage of the whole log, as the wedge-shaped space between each rectangular piece gets thrown away.

 

2 hours ago, MiKro said:

Think about what I just said.

I'm trying to, but I keep on coming back to chocolate. Ommmmm...Nope, there I go again...

[Bizman62]

Having read every word above it's obvious that different species act differently. As I said in my first post my experience is from pine flooring where there's both slab and more or less quarter sawn planks. Maple is much more homogenous. Further, as the birdseye feature is caused by tiny knots that never grew there's no single grain direction, just swirls and curls all over the place.

[Andyjr1515]

Well, talking from the point of someone still struggling to see a piece of wood and tell if it IS quartersawn....

But when did that ever stop me pontificating...

I think it's more to do with cupping of planks.  The narrower the plank, the less this is an issue, so for a small square section, like a neck blank, it isn't really an issue.  Beyond that, I think it's more about aesthetics.

[mistermikev]

9 hours ago, MiKro said:

I have used birdseye before, No problem. Now think about Fender. They used flat sawn boards for necks with a skunk stripe. Think about what I just said.

mk

hehe, literally took the words out of my mouth.  I was saying the sm thing a couple sentences back (fender) because that occurred to me.   if it's good 'nuff for them!

thank you for chiming in!!

6 hours ago, curtisa said:

You big tease.

For the record, I'm not saying that any old flatsawn piece turned 90 degrees makes it quartersawn. There may be legitimate reasons why a truly quartersawn piece from a log would behave differently that I'm not aware of. But thinking about it in my rattly old head there doesn't appear to be much difference between the two. Another way to look at the interchangability between flat vs quarter, if you were to grab a layers of flatsawn stock from the log slicing operation, the slab that ran dead through the middle would be quartersawn at the edges.

Properly quartersawn timber is expensive in comparision to flatsawn because it's wasteful. If you were to genuinely quartersaw a log into fret board shaped chunks, you'd have to rotate the log around its axis and cut everything in a bicycle spoke wheel kinda pattern. Dividing the circular log cross section up into rectangular chunks radiating out from the centre means that you can't maximise the usage of the whole log, as the wedge-shaped space between each rectangular piece gets thrown away.

 

I'm trying to, but I keep on coming back to chocolate. Ommmmm...Nope, there I go again...

i read that whole post.... but what I have to say about it is - such a fan of david mitchel!  smart guy, and super funny.  mitchel and webb look... I gotta go speed watch that again!!  again, thank for your insight!

3 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Having read every word above it's obvious that different species act differently. As I said in my first post my experience is from pine flooring where there's both slab and more or less quarter sawn planks. Maple is much more homogenous. Further, as the birdseye feature is caused by tiny knots that never grew there's no single grain direction, just swirls and curls all over the place.

for the record... was just mentioning birdseye because I read that it was only flatsawn and found that interesting.  I'm interested in using flamed maple... which is much more prone to warp/cup/bow.  yeah, doesn't really make sense that it'd have to be flatsawn... but I always default to assuming I have no idea.  thanks for the reply.

3 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Well, talking from the point of someone still struggling to see a piece of wood and tell if it IS quartersawn....

But when did that ever stop me pontificating...

I think it's more to do with cupping of planks.  The narrower the plank, the less this is an issue, so for a small square section, like a neck blank, it isn't really an issue.  Beyond that, I think it's more about aesthetics.

very much appreciate your perspective.

[komodo]

Have never done woodworking before, but was summoned from the depths so I'll take a stab....

Consider that even if you had a deformed plank, you are slotting it and hammering metal bits in that can very easily warp it in the opposite direction, Then you are applying an adhesive on a large surface, essentially laminating it to the neck. You could probably use any material on the planet really.

[Bizman62]

2 hours ago, komodo said:

You could probably use any material on the planet really.

... as long as it's solid and hard enough to withstand the wear and tear caused by fingers and strings for a couple of decades of regular playing.

[Prostheta]

I used to be far more diligent and obsessive over things like flatsawn vs. quartersawn years back. Exactly what Mikro says about Fender, agreed. My more chilled out (more, not "completely") self thinks that symmetrical growth ring direction across the neck profile is key. Also, avoiding wood with tight growth ring radii as these will always be the greatest source of movement and warping in service.

When it comes to visual aspects, yes, you can't avoid specific cuts if you're trying to show a specific figure available only on that cut. Birdseye spots off the flat close to the outside of the tree for the most part, flame off the quarter, etc. I stand by my premise of using good wood (larger growth ring radii, symmetry) rather than obsessing over quartersawn-only for neck shafts and whatever for the fingerboard. Hundreds of thousands of perfectly serviceable necks in all camps of thought reduce the need for overthinking ring orientation! Do what makes you happiest with your work as long as the basic rationale is good.

[ScottR]

My first fretboard was a flatsawn piece of bocote. And as pointed out earlier maple is commonly used flatsawn. I believe it was @verhoevenc that pointed out some years ago during a similar conversation that maple actually shows greater stiffness when flatsawn......and also pointed out that this is an anomaly inherent to maple and not true of all or even most timbers. @komodo got it right I think. If it will hold frets and is hard enough to resist wear from playing it will do for a fretboard, however it is cut.

SR

[mistermikev]

On 12/24/2020 at 9:50 AM, komodo said:

Have never done woodworking before, but was summoned from the depths so I'll take a stab....

Consider that even if you had a deformed plank, you are slotting it and hammering metal bits in that can very easily warp it in the opposite direction, Then you are applying an adhesive on a large surface, essentially laminating it to the neck. You could probably use any material on the planet really.

Never done... u r silly.  I dunno... not sure unky spalted maple would be a good idea, but I smell what yer stepping in there.

8 hours ago, Prostheta said:

I used to be far more diligent and obsessive over things like flatsawn vs. quartersawn years back. Exactly what Mikro says about Fender, agreed. My more chilled out (more, not "completely") self thinks that symmetrical growth ring direction across the neck profile is key. Also, avoiding wood with tight growth ring radii as these will always be the greatest source of movement and warping in service.

When it comes to visual aspects, yes, you can't avoid specific cuts if you're trying to show a specific figure available only on that cut. Birdseye spots off the flat close to the outside of the tree for the most part, flame off the quarter, etc. I stand by my premise of using good wood (larger growth ring radii, symmetry) rather than obsessing over quartersawn-only for neck shafts and whatever for the fingerboard. Hundreds of thousands of perfectly serviceable necks in all camps of thought reduce the need for overthinking ring orientation! Do what makes you happiest with your work as long as the basic rationale is good.

 So... more symmetry than absence of runout?  I guess it hadn't occurred to me that symmetry was something to look for but now that you said it... seems obvious!  Good call.

1 hour ago, ScottR said:

My first fretboard was a flatsawn piece of bocote. And as pointed out earlier maple is commonly used flatsawn. I believe it was @verhoevenc that pointed out some years ago during a similar conversation that maple actually shows greater stiffness when flatsawn......and also pointed out that this is an anomaly inherent to maple and not true of all or even most timbers. @komodo got it right I think. If it will hold frets and is hard enough to resist wear from playing it will do for a fretboard, however it is cut.

SR

This is going in my trick bag... maple is more rigid if flatsawn... that is a jem!      

 

Sorry for ignoring your posts after I called yall out... rude of me.  I am enriched by your knowledge and am very thankful for the responses!