Aniline dye problem.

[Woodworm]

I am seriously hacked off at the moment!

Three months ago, (yes, it takes that long for stuff to get to Cyprus), I ordered some red and black aniline dye powder, from a guitar/guitar parts supplier.
It finally arrived today, great I thought, I’ll finally be able to get started.
I prepared a piece of wood, the same wood I’m using in my build, ready to do some test stains.

My problem is I don’t seem to be able to mix the stuff.

I am using hot/warm water, but when I add the powder it’s virtually impossible to get the stuff to dissolve, the powder just sits on top of the water.
I gave up trying to mix it by hand, it simply wouldn’t dissolve/mix.
I then resorted to an electric drill, with a bent piece of wire as a stirrer, even then after 5 mins of mixing it wasn’t properly dissolved, there was a layer of powder still on top of the water, the powder that has broken through the surface tension was sitting at the bottom of the glass.
The above was with the black dye about 6 hours ago, I’m looking at the glass with the mixture in it now, there is a 15mm layer of black liquid at the top below that is virtually clear water.
The glass with the red dye is the opposite, there is a layer of red at the bottom with nearly clear water above it!
What is going on?
The instructions for the dye specifically say it can be mixed with water, alcohol or lacquer.

I did try mixing some of the dye powder with alcohol, it appeared to mix quite easily but when I applied it to the wood any colour seemed to stay on the surface and seemed to wipe off very easily.

The only thing I can possibly think of is we have very hard water here, in other words we get a lot of limescale on metal plumbing fitting.

Just to add to my frustration, a month ago I thought I’d experiment with food colouring, to stain the wood, so I had a go, it was great, a nice vibrant red, it’s still bright red a month later.
I dismissed the food colouring option because I assumed it would fade or rub off, but it hasn’t!

I’m sure someone will suggest ordering something else but thanks to brexit most UK suppliers are not sending stuff here any more, I wanted some Iron Gear pickups but the suppliers aren’t posting to Cyprus anymore.  Ordering from the US is simply out of the question the postage is laughable and the customs hassle just doesn’t bear thinking about.
There is no equivalent product in Cyprus whatsoever!

If anyone knows of an EU supplier of water based wood dye available in bright red and black, I’d be really grateful.

You can’t imagine how annoyed I am at the moment!

[curtisa]

Maybe the powdered dye you've ordered is somewhat sensitive to mineral content in your local water supply? Do you have especially hard water where you are? The fact that it dissolves in better in alcohol than in water might be a clue.

If the alcohol-based dye solution wipes straight off your wood test piece without penetrating, could the test piece you're using have been previously coated with anything like varnish or oil? Could the wood itself be somewhat intrinsically water repellant - maybe something with naturally high oil content?

Could be a dud batch of dye? Maybe it's been exposed to moisture at some point in the past. (not much help I realise. Just thinking out loud)

What about fabric dyes from a local craft store? I often walk past the packs of powdered dyes for T-shirt making and cloth dying when the wife wants to visit our local art supplies outlet, and look at all the range of colours (including black) and wonder if they're any good for woodworking applications.

[Bizman62]

I've heard about successfully using fabric dyes for guitars so that's definitely an option. Leather dyes are another commonly used product for wood. And if memory serves me right I've read about someone having successfully used food colouring. If your test pieces stand the test of direct Mediterranian sunlight for some months, compared to similar pieces stored where the sun never shines, they should be as good as any wood dyes. Actually, there's photos online of old guitars in mint condition other than having faded despite having been stored in the case. Many "tobacco burst" vintage Gibsons have started their life as a 3 tone sunburst, the red having faded away.

If you believe hard water is the main issue with your dyes, try distilling it or use rain water.

When cotton yarn or fabrics are dyed, salt is added to the dye bath as a mordant to help the fibers absorb the dye. As wood is somewhat similar to cotton, both being natural materials, you could even try sea water!

[Woodworm]

An update!

This morning I have tried mixing up solutions using de-ionised/distilled water, de=ionised/distilled water with salt added and also White Spirit.

All have produced the same results as before, very difficult to mix with the water, easier with the White Spirit.  Once mixed, after 10 to 15 mins, the powder settles to the bottom leaving clear liquid above it, which in my book is a total failure.

I have contacted the supplier, not asking for a refund, but asking them their thoughts and to test some and let me know the results.

To answer a questions, as I mentioned I've successfully dyed the same wood with food dye, so I don't believe it's anything to do with the wood itself.

I guess my only options now are food dyes or fabric dyes, there simply aren't any real alternatives available here, not in the specific colours I want.

 

[Drak]

Try dissolving in lacquer thinner and let me know what happens.

If that works, just use lacquer thinner as your dissolver solution instead of alcohol or water.

I have a feeling it may work.

And obviously make sure your wood is raw wood.

You have the real deal there, don't fall backwards with the idea of fabric dyes.

Just be patient and work with your product, it is the right and intended product for what you want and need.

I had the exact same thing happen about 25 years ago with some jars of Behlen dye powder.

Drove me nearly crazy there for a bit.

[Woodworm]

Thanks for the reply.

Could you define "lacquer thinner", please.

Would I be correct in  assuming you're referring to cellulose thinners? 

[Drak]

So, I typed in 'cellulose thinner' into Google to see what came up.

Some products were correct (lacquer thinner) and others were not (paint thinner, among others)

So the term 'cellulose thinner', I would believe, isn't definitive enough, but you're getting close.

And both paint thinner and lacquer thinner can be made up of various chemical brews and recipes, according to the specific manufacturer...

Your product states it dissolves in water, alcohol, and lacquer.

You have tried water and alcohol, now try lacquer (thinner), the reducing, thinning, and dissolving agent for lacquer.

 

'Paint' thinner is a different product, so 'cellulose thinner' I don't think, quite hits the mark.

Lacquer thinner does, and you should be able to buy it in small consumer quantities.

 

If you find a 'cellulose thinner' that clearly states on the label it dissolves lacquer, that should work.

But I would prefer a product that says 'lacquer thinner' as its primary label since you're having troubles already and to avoid further stress/confusion.

Stated more specifically:

I'm recommending a product you can use to add to lacquer to thin down lacquer, not just use it to 'clean up' (dissolve) lacquer.

Because that's what your product is telling you it dissolves in.

[Woodworm]

Thanks for the info, I've just had a quick google and lacquer thinner is available here, I will try and get some tomorrow.

[Drak]

A few 'in advance' things if you find it and it works...

I don't know how much you're mixing at a time, but I remember past threads where people were mixing WAAY too much dye for a guitar and so wasting their product they paid money for. They were mixing enough to do 20 guitars but they didn't know it at the time, so I thought I would just mention amounts...as in you need very little to do a guitar. You may be doing it perfect, just thought I'd bring it up...

Typically I'm using these when mixing for a guitar, and no more dye than would fit on the end of a typical screwdriver:

 

So I'm imagining you've bought lacquer thinner and it worked (I'm thinking positive here)

There are a few tricks and tips...lacquer thinner, when used as a dye transferring agent (instead of water, or alcohol) goes on fast and dries fast. It's not common, most people don't use it for this, but it IS a viable transfer agent when the situation calls for it. It's not water and so doesn't 'act' like water. With water, some people wipe and wipe and wipe and wipe...sometimes for a particular effect (to blend colors, for example). Water dries slowww, which gives you Time. You won't be able to do that with lacquer thinner as it dries reasonably fast. Not stupid fast, but faster than water for sure.  So I'm telling you in advance so you know what to expect.

A tip (not trying to confuse you, but you can customize these things sometimes) if your dye dissolves in the lacquer thinner and you've test-tried it on your wood and everything looks good (please do this on scrap first)...

You can then add some water to it IF you want to 'buy time' for yourself (the wipe and wipe and wipe thing)

I just did 2 guitars a few days ago where I used lacquer thinner (for completely different reasons than we're discussing here) and I added nothing, but I knew what was going to happen. I had more than enough time to do the guitar w/o adding water to 'slow things down'...but you CAN do it.

Think of adding water to dye and lacquer thinner as a 'retarder' in this situation. Just a tiny bit of water added buys you time, if you need it. If you don't, I wouldn't bother with it.

Again, not trying to confuse you or muddy the waters, but its a trick that's nice to have in your back pocket in case you need it.

[Woodworm]

Thanks for the tip, I was thinking about how long lacquer thinner would take to flash off,

What I want to do is blend one colour into the other so there's a smooth transition between the two and not a distinct line!

Anyway, I'm off to see if I can find this stuff!

[Bizman62]

4 hours ago, Drak said:

Typically I'm using these [30 ml cups] when mixing for a guitar, and no more dye than would fit on the end of a typical screwdriver:

That's a good reminder. For my current build I used the cup of a tealight for mixing the Stunning Stain Shots (syringe included) with alcohol. Half a cup was plenty enough for the body and I believe most of it got sucked into the palm size piece of old T-shirt I used for applying.

[Drak]

5 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

I believe most of it got sucked into the palm size piece of old T-shirt I used for applying.

Thats an interesting observation that I agree with. I noticed the same thing the other day when I was doing a straight lacquer thinner dye job. I noticed that the cloth I was using really sucked up the dye by the time I was done, where with water it seems to stay concentrated more directly around my fingertips/direct application area. I did indeed notice that, oddly enough.

[Woodworm]

Well the lacquer thinners were purchased today. Got them home, mixed up a bit and............

 

It didn't work, a total and utter fail.

I dropped a bit of powder into the thinners and it just sank to the bottom didn't even discolour the liquid.

I thought things might work out after I gave it a good shake but 10 mins later it was starting to settle out.

Three hours later and the powder was sitting at the bottom of the jar with clear liquid above it.

I don't know what I have been sent but it is not functioning as a dye.

My only options now are fabric dye or food colouring, I'll buy both, test them and see which I prefer!

 

[Drak]

Can you take a pic of the container and post it here, front and back, so I can read all words on all labels? And if you can, a pic of some of the powder, maybe just take the lid off and click a pic. Or post a link to an online pic of exactly what you have (minus maybe different color)?

There's something fishy going on here, and whatever it is, it should be solved. If I can read the label(s), I can probably figure out what's going on. I've used just about every kind of dye you could come up with. I would really like to see the labeling, if you can, please and thanks, if possible.

Don't give up just yet, and don't spend any more money just yet. Fabric dyes and food coloring are not a very good answer to your problem.

 

For the time being...you said it mixed with alcohol but didn't 'set' on the wood. I would imagine you still have the alcohol. Try mixing a bit of powder with some alcohol, then add in a bit of water. But don't mix the water in first, mix the powder with alcohol, then a bit of water. Try that and post some pics if you can.

PS, if you think 'hard water' is an issue, I believe a few drops of vinegar (white, distilled if you have it) may help. Vinegar is acidic, which should drop the pH and may work!

[Woodworm]

First of all, I need to point out that Cyprus is basically an island off the coast of the middle east and as such doesn’t necessarily conform to the standards you might expect.
Anyway, here goes.
 
There are no product details on the container itself, just the normal health and safety do’s and don’ts, however, here are all the details copied from the technical data sheet on their website:-

THINNER 11/11
Thinner used as a diluent for products such as furniture lacquers, industrial paints etc. It consists of a solvent blend suitable for warm weather conditions.

Specific Gravity : 0.85±0.02
Viscosity : 10-12" 
Ford cup No.4 Flash point : <23°C
Initial Boiling Point : >35°C

Contains: TOLUENE, 2-METHYLPROPAN-1-ol, METHANOL.

There are no details on the dye powder packaging. It merely says “Aniline Dye Powder”.
 

[Woodworm]

Just to be clear, when I mixed the powder with alcohol, I tried using it straight away, not realising then that 10 mins later, the mixture would just settle out, with a layer of powder at the bottom.

I have tried using distilled water, so that rules out the water hardness issue.

Everything I have tried so far results in the mixture settling out, leaving a layer of powder on the bottom with clear liquid above it.  

[Drak]

If there are no details on the packaging, how did you know it (potentially) dissolves in water, alcohol, or lacquer?

Where (or how) did you come by that information?

And I'm assuming it is not possible for you to post any pics of the container then...

Do you have any other paint-related thinners or cleaners around your house? Turpentine, mineral spirits, anything like that?

Can you call (or go visit if they're close by) any local/nearby boat/ship repair guys who refinish/repair sailing vessels?

The dissolving chemical, whatever it is, once you know, everything will drop into place and make sense.

It's just kind of like a puzzle at the moment, with a piece missing, nothing more than that.

[Woodworm]

32 minutes ago, Drak said:

If there are no details on the packaging, how did you know it (potentially) dissolves in water, alcohol, or lacquer?

Where (or how) did you come by that information?

And I'm assuming it is not possible for you to post any pics of the container then...

Do you have any other paint-related thinners or cleaners around your house? Turpentine, mineral spirits, anything like that?

Can you call (or go visit if they're close by) any local/nearby boat/ship repair guys who refinish/repair sailing vessels?

The dissolving chemical, whatever it is, once you know, everything will drop into place and make sense.

It's just kind of like a puzzle at the moment, with a piece missing, nothing more than that.

The Dye powder packaging has no details on it other than "Aniline Dye Powder", no brand other than the sellers logo, which they've added to the outer packaging.

I have made an error when reading the website, the black and red dye powders will not dissolve in water, the white dye powder they sell will,

It does say, specifically, on the website that the dye powder will dissolve in "Thinners, Alcohol and Acetone".

Having had no success with thinners or alcohol, I tried mixing with acetone, a couple of hours ago, this does look a bit more promising, however although I have a black liquid there is still powder settling on the bottom of the container, maybe if I keep agitating it and leave it over night I might get a result.

I've already tried mineral spirits, with no luck.  Turpentine and cellulose/nitro thinners are the only things I haven't tried yet.  I'm not sure I want to use either though because I'll be restricted to an acrylic clear coat.

Due to the current situation I don't think there'll be any boat yards open for a month or two.

[Bizman62]

If there's a shoemaker's shop ask them if they have any leather dyes. Jerry Rosa uses mostly those as they seem to work well on wood. And they're already liquid.

[Woodworm]

17 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

If there's a shoemaker's shop ask them if they have any leather dyes. Jerry Rosa uses mostly those as they seem to work well d they're already liquid.

The problem with leather dye will be finding it, we're not exactly up to speed here, as far as the internet is concerned.  I would be relying on word of mouth and in the current situation, that is somewhat difficult.

Having left the dye mixed with acetone overnight, I was quite hopeful it would work.  Despite there being some settling of the powder there was, at least, a black liquid in the jar.
I’ve just tested it on the wood and it’s rubbish, after multiple applications it just makes the wood look dirty, as opposed to black and there is very little penetration of the wood.

I’m afraid I’m giving up on this, it’s glaringly obvious, that with what I have at my disposal, this isn’t going to work.
I’ll have to order some stains from Crimson, assuming they’re shipping here and put up with the 3 month delivery time.  I’ve used their products before and I know they work!

Thanks for all the advice!

[Bizman62]

4 hours ago, Woodworm said:

The problem with leather dye will be finding it, we're not exactly up to speed here, as far as the internet is concerned.

That's why I recommended a shoemaker's shop, or rather a shoe repair shop. Or a leather tailor. For what I've heard Cyprus is well known for leather products so you should be able to find a drop or two in an abandoned bottle. You really don't need much for a guitar or three!

[Woodworm]

Just to complete this saga, the solution I had made with the acetone did seem quite promising, however having been sat in the jar for three days that mixture has now settled out, with powder at the bottom and clear liquid above.  I have no idea what the powder was but clearly it doesn't work.

I have, in the mean time, sourced some, premixed, water based leather dyes, unfortunately it's in mainland Greece, so another long wait for delivery, no doubt!