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Ibanez S540 LTD Rebuild Advice


axegarden

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Yup, just from your first shots I thought it was a very nice piece of Mahogany.

Just don't dig into it with your putty knife, have some patience, and you're on your way to the next step w/ no setbacks.

And you're learning as you go, which is what builds skill sets for future endeavors.

 

Depending on what your final finish plans are, you may not need to touch the cavities.

I wouldn't sweat those at the moment.

 

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8 hours ago, axegarden said:

The metallic layer is definitely a pain. It bubbles a little but still won't readily come off. I don't know how I got it off so easily with my fingers when the hole first opened a fear years ago.

If you're talking about the area on the control cavity side one reason might be a bump/shock! You may have hit the edge so that the entire finish has just popped off but as the paint is basically some sort of plastic there may not have been any major visible damage. This reminds me of a Crimson video where Ben Crowe accidentally dropped an old neck so that the fretboard popped right off! It had been glued with epoxy in his early days as a luthier. And he could reproduce the effect to ensure it was not just because of a poor joint. 

6 hours ago, Drak said:

Depending on what your final finish plans are, you may not need to touch the cavities.

Amen to that! No matter if the cavities are covered with conductive paint or just the finish, they'd be covered by the pickup rings. And even if you're planning on direct mounting the pickups and plug the screw holes of the original rings it's common practice to paint the cavities dark to enhance the shadows around the pickups and other hardware. Didn't @Drak just paint the trem cavity black in his current build thread?

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11 hours ago, Drak said:

Yup, just from your first shots I thought it was a very nice piece of Mahogany.

Just don't dig into it with your putty knife, have some patience, and you're on your way to the next step w/ no setbacks.

Depending on what your final finish plans are, you may not need to touch the cavities.

I'm not sure about the final finish yet, that's why I'm here to gather the knowledge goodies. I don't have a spray rig, so that rules out spray lacquer. It seems the easiest option for me is a pre-catalytic lacquer from a can. 

4 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

If you're talking about the area on the control cavity side one reason might be a bump/shock! You may have hit the edge so that the entire finish has just popped off but as the paint is basically some sort of plastic there may not have been any major visible damage. This reminds me of a Crimson video where Ben Crowe accidentally dropped an old neck so that the fretboard popped right off! It had been glued with epoxy in his early days as a luthier. And he could reproduce the effect to ensure it was not just because of a poor joint. 

Amen to that! No matter if the cavities are covered with conductive paint or just the finish, they'd be covered by the pickup rings. And even if you're planning on direct mounting the pickups and plug the screw holes of the original rings it's common practice to paint the cavities dark to enhance the shadows around the pickups and other hardware. Didn't @Drak just paint the trem cavity black in his current build thread?

I guess I was referring to the top cavities for the trem & pickups, but the back too. God I would love it if the cavities popped out whole. I'll try it but not force it. The perfectionist part of me wants to get the finish out, but I know that's some hella sanding that I don't want to do, and you're right they'll never be visible unless a pickup is out. 

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1 minute ago, axegarden said:

God I would love it if the cavities popped out whole. I'll try it but not force it.

Don't try it. I was referring to how cleanly you got the finish off of the lower bout between the edge and the controls.

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So I was able to scrape the rest of the finish off today. The metallic layer persists. I uncovered a few cracks, two around the neck pocket/heel and the other in the bottom of the top horn which seems like it might coincide with the joint between two pieces of the mahogany body. What am I to do about these cracks? Glue and clamps?

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1 hour ago, axegarden said:

What am I to do about these cracks? Glue and clamps?

That's most likely the best option. Based on what I've seen on Jerry Rosa's videos I'd recommend Titebond instead of CA (super glue). Try running some warm water with a small paintbrush to the cracks and after that the Titebond. The water is thinner so it will sink into the cracks and the pores of the wood, sucking the glue in after it. Wiggle the cracks for a pumping effect to get the glue as deep as humanly possible. If you take a certain amount of glue on a plate rather than just brushing it from the nozzle you can tell if you've actually used any glue. If the glue runs out and there's not much spread around the cracks you know it has to be inside them, don't you? When clamping, you should then see some squeezeout to tell that there actually is glue inside the crack.

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I reckon you're ready to switch to sanding to get the last of the metallic layer off.

Were those cracks evident on the original finish, or did they only become apparent after the blue was removed?

You could try applying some clamping force (no glue) to them to see if there is enough movement to close them up, just to see if it's possible, They're in awkward places with all the curves and contours around them - very few flat spots to get a clamp on to get enough purchase. The hairline one in the apex of the top horn probably won't close as there is too much solid wood to try to bend back in to a straight line.

The only one that bothers me particularly if it were my guitar, from a structural standpoint, is the one on the bass-side of the neck pocket. You might be able to syringe some thinned-down PVA into the crack from inside the neck pocket where it won't be visible and then clamp it shut.

Edit: snap with @Bizman62!

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It depends on how you intend to deal with the cracks.

If you're just looking to fill in the gaps, then CYA glue will work best (with accelerator would be preferred).

If you're going to clamp them shut, then Titebond.

Titebond is not designed to fill gaps, it shrinks a lot when it dries and is very weak as a standalone solid, so it will need repeated attempts to truly fill the gaps.

Titebond is designed to join wood surfaces together, like, touching each other, preferably clamped, in that situation, it is very strong indeed.

CYA glue has no shrink.

So it depends on whether you're gap-filling cracks or re-joining wood pieces together again.

I thin down Titebond with water all the time depending on the situation, but I don't use it to fill cracks and such.

I mean, you can put a fingernail dent in dead-dry Titebond.

 

PS, wear a mask if you're going to sand that silver off, I don't know what's in that stuff, might be harmful.

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12 hours ago, Drak said:

It depends on how you intend to deal with the cracks.

So it depends on whether you're gap-filling cracks or re-joining wood pieces together again.

PS, wear a mask if you're going to sand that silver off, I don't know what's in that stuff, might be harmful.

Ah thanks for this. I'll post more pictures when I sand the metallic layer off and get some more feedback. I'm a little worried that the crack that seems to be coincident with the seam between body joints IS the joint, and that the crack at the top of the neck pocket is .... a structural problem. The guitar never gave me any guff before so I hope I can repair these and it will continue to behave as normal. 

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Was able to finish 95% of the sanding today (Random Orbital Sander). Only the inside of the horns remain for hand sanding. Ill tell ya whut this thing is not fun to sand, it's entirely curved. I def have some rough areas around the hard edges, and I hope I can make them look better with finer hand sanding (I used up to 120 so far). The crack in the bottom of the horn seems only to be in the horn, it IS in the joint between the body pieces, but only seems a hair deep. The neck pocket crack looks scary. I can tell it's visible on the inside of the pocket for an inch or so. I bought some clamps and Titebond 2 - I welcome any tips. 

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There is a problem with the input jack. It's plastic. I hate it and can't get it out. I can sortof manage a flathead to push on it from the back cavity, but it doesn't seem to budge. Suggestions? I may need to replace it too. 

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I also got my test piece of African Mahogany. I called around and couldn't find anyone local that had some, so I ordered a piece of "microlumber" from Cook Woods in Oregon. It seems to match pretty well. I have a dozen Angelus dyes and a dozen more Crimson Shots on the way. 😎

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Neck pocket crack should clamp back together fairly easily, just need to 'encourage' the glue to enter as deeply as possible before applying pressure. Thinning it down with a little water and massaging it into the crack using a fine bristled brush should do the trick.

 

1 hour ago, axegarden said:

There is a problem with the input jack. It's plastic. I hate it and can't get it out. I can sortof manage a flathead to push on it from the back cavity, but it doesn't seem to budge. Suggestions? I may need to replace it too

Not sure I follow. Are you saying the input jack cutout is lined with some kind of plastic sleeve that you want to remove? Might actually be best if you can leave it in place and patch the broken edges with some kind of tinted epoxy, and cast it back into shape using a makeshift mould. Attempting to dig it out will probably leave the cutout oversized and beaten up, which will make refinishing that area harder than it already is.

 

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5 hours ago, axegarden said:

There is a problem with the input jack. It's plastic. I hate it and can't get it out. I can sortof manage a flathead to push on it from the back cavity, but it doesn't seem to budge. Suggestions? I may need to replace it too. 

As @curtisa said, it might be best to leave it in place and just patch it.

For making it look nicer and getting rid of the chips a small sanding roll for a Dremel type tool might work. Like these https://www.amazon.co.uk/AUSTOR-Including-Sanding-Sleeves-Mandrels/dp/B074ZHP6L6/ref=psdc_1939279031_t1_B07GYRH8ZK

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18 hours ago, curtisa said:

Not sure I follow. 

The input jack is on the top of the guitar. You can see it (the plastic "jack socket") in the first and fifth photos of my last post. The original finish was opaque and covered up the existence of this jack "socket", as it was also finished so you didn't see the socket at all. I assume the socket is to refine the diameter of the channel/opening for the metal hardware of the input jack, maybe just to stabilize the cable as it sits in the jack. At this point it is getting sanded down every time I sand the top., and I'd rather not have the obvious black plastic in the middle of the nice stained top I want. I asked Rich from IbanezRules, and he doesn't know of any replacement for this part. I'm really tempted to force it out (through the back cavity by pushing on a small lip I can feel), stain the body and the socket as normal, and then finding some replacement hardware, (which would be invisible thanks to the shape of the top) to accomplish the same function it had/has. 

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I suspect the black plastic sleeve you describe is put in to protect the wood from dings and dents from repeated insertions of a guitar cable, and also to save Ibanez from having to do a complicated sanding operation on a difficult part of the guitar in order to make it look as smooth as the surrounding area for painting. Removing it will make the opening bigger, which may or may not be visually noticeable, and the area prone to damage from the guitar lead.

Here's a Reverb listing for a clear-finished Mahogany S540 that shows the black plastic doodad visible in the socket. Personally it doesn't bother me that much, as you have other aspects of the guitar that shows off the black additions nearby, such as the pickup selector shroud. Other Google image searches for similar Ibanez S guitars show the same thing - it appears to just be a standard feature of the instrument.

If the plastic also forms the mounting bracket for the socket and you take it out you're also going to have to find some way of re-mounting the jack such that it can be solidly attached to the body - if the hole it leaves behind is larger than the shoulder of the jack socket it'll just fall straight through the body. If this is the case you could plug the hole to the same depth as where the jack normally bears against with some timber and redrill it to just accommodate the shaft of the socket? Tricky to do effectvely blind (as soon as you insert the drill bit you can't see what you're doing to line it up) with the socket at an odd angle like that.

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Hope I'm not too late to throw in my two cents. I'd drill out the whole plastic sleeve and plug it with a piece of mahogany and redo the whole thing. If you want to keep it clean and clear, the sleeve has to go. Shame this is such an issue to you, the newer models don't have that sleeve and are actually fairly nicely finished and polished even on the low end models (take a look at the Ibanez S520/S521).

This was my take on that socket position, and after a year of plugging it in/unplugging, no noticeable scratches/dents etc... pain in the ass to get it done, but worth it :D 

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On 4/2/2021 at 4:03 AM, Gogzs said:

Hope I'm not too late to throw in my two cents. I'd drill out the whole plastic sleeve and plug it with a piece of mahogany and redo the whole thing. If you want to keep it clean and clear, the sleeve has to go. Shame this is such an issue to you, the newer models don't have that sleeve and are actually fairly nicely finished and polished even on the low end models (take a look at the Ibanez S520/S521).

This was my take on that socket position, and after a year of plugging it in/unplugging, no noticeable scratches/dents etc... pain in the ass to get it done, but worth it :D 

 

Yes my dude that's exactly what I'm aiming for! Nice axe you've got there I like that shape. From what I can tell the plastic socket doesn't actually alter the size of the jack opening, it just changes the length of the channel, so I think something as simple as some o-rings might get the job done. Getting it out is going to be a pain though. 

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2 hours ago, axegarden said:

Yes my dude that's exactly what I'm aiming for! Nice axe you've got there I like that shape. From what I can tell the plastic socket doesn't actually alter the size of the jack opening, it just changes the length of the channel, so I think something as simple as some o-rings might get the job done. Getting it out is going to be a pain though. 

Here is the build thread, you'll see that my build was heavily inspired by the S-series, I just "fixed" the things I didn't like on mine (like the fact that it isn't a neck through). 

Maybe you find something you like there. Cheers! 

 

 

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So this is what I got for you about that jack cup. I found a thread from Jemsite where someone else was doing the exact same rebuild thing you are, same guitar. So you can check the thread to see how his came out and see if you want to alter your plans based on what he did. Anyway, about 2/3 the way down the first page, Frank Falbo responded to the guy about the jack cup. And he said just leave it as-is and to take your time cleaning it up as much as you can. If Frank Falbo said that, I wouldn't question it, I would go with his recommendation. Although I find it completely puzzling why a factory-build guitar has a part that doesn't dis-assemble, since it had to be assembled in the first place.

If it could/would come out so you could clean it up and re-install, I would believe he would have said so and the guy before you would have done it. So, I wouldn't touch the thing from here on out. I would actually be really careful with it unless you have formed other plans. I would plan on having to clean it up, doctor it, fix it, whatever, but apparently they don't willingly come out. I would just stick that in the plans, one more step that needs attention at some point. If it were me, and it doesn't come out w/o breaking it (which I find really puzzling as its a factory guitar)...

I would look at its renovation as a sort of 'mini-project' unto itself.

Same Re-Build as Yours

If that were me and I was contemplating removing it, I would DAMN sure have a working and successful plan in mind before I removed what's there.

Remember, this is all about proceeding forward w/o shooting yourself in the foot, especially unnecessarily. You have reached the first cliffhanger for your project, it probably won't be the last, but learn how to proceed without setting yourself backwards.

The reason I say that is because I read the words 'O-Rings', (OMG) hahaha!

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  • 2 weeks later...

I finally have some update with the ol axe (I'm a horticulturist for a living and I'm hella busy at this time of year, leaving me tired and exhausted at the end of the day - no energy for the rebuild). I tried clamping the body closed to see if the cracks could be shut, but the angles of the body, and my novice with clamps, made it difficult to determine where and how I should clamp. Also, the neck pocket crack (part of it) is in a diagonal direction to the planes I can clamp.

the meantime, I sanded my sample Khaya/African Mahogany to 220, and have tried staining some Angelus leather dyes. I tried the - black first, sand back , and add color - trick, but i reckon the wood is a little too dark to pull this off without a pretty dark result, depending on the colors applied after black. I tried a black to blue to turquoise that turned out pretty sharp. The angelus purple seems a bit dark for my purposes. I did a purp + light blue (where + = sanding in between such that the first color is mostly relegated to the deepest grain), and a navy blue + turquoise that turned out veery similar. A rose + turquoise turned out really nice, may be a keeper. Light blue + jean blue turned out to be a nice indigo. My last photo is a collection of the 6 i've tried so far: 1. black + blue + turq, 2. = black + navy blue + purp. 3. purp + light blue 4. navy blue + turq 5. rose + turq 6. light blue + jean blue

 

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5 hours ago, axegarden said:

the angles of the body, and my novice with clamps, made it difficult to determine where and how I should clamp. Also, the neck pocket crack (part of it) is in a diagonal direction to the planes I can clamp.

One word: Wedges! For addressing hard to reach areas like that one option is to pinch the piece between two boards held in place with clamps and then add wedges between the board and body to apply diagonal pressure. Let me draw it!

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Another trick is to use the bars of the clamps as levers. Use whatever you can - bungee cord, rope, another clamp - to pull the bars towards each other.

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5 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

One word: Wedges! For addressing hard to reach areas like that one option is to pinch the piece between two boards held in place with clamps and then add wedges between the board and body to apply diagonal pressure. Let me draw it!

Dude thank you muchly for taking the time to make these graphics. I didn't think of that at all. Do you think wedges like this will be "safe" for a soft wood like Mahogany? Should I just make these wedges with scrap pine around my garage? I need more clamps...

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2 hours ago, axegarden said:

Do you think wedges like this will be "safe" for a soft wood like Mahogany?

I was thinking about that while driving to work. You can use pieces of leather, hardboard or thick cardboard between the wedges and the body to prevent dents as those will spread the pressure on a larger area, thus preventing dents. You can make the wedges out of any wood although I'd prefer some dense hardwood like maple or beech. Pine might split under pressure. Having all sorts of wedges at hand can be very helpful, make them wide, narrow, long, short, tall... And save them for future use! The illustration just shows where to put them, not the actual shape or size.

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The black/sandback won't work here because there is no figure in the wood for the black to highlight.

So, yeah, that's a no-go process for this piece.

The only 'enhancement' available would be to use a black pore-filler (Timbermate) to fill the pores black.

That's about the only 'trick' available as far as color enhancement goes for standard Mahogany.

So, Mahogany is brown, very brown.

If you're using any colors associated with Brown (like yellow, orange, red, brown) then you just go ahead.

But with anything 'other', like Blue or Green or anything that isn't in brown's boathouse...

I always Bleach the wood first to remove as much brown as possible.

I typically use Kleen-Strip A/B bleach, works pretty good. Regular bleach, forget it, not a viable answer.

Have you looked up 'Mahogany Guitar' in a search engine to see what's out there?

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1 hour ago, Drak said:

The black/sandback won't work here because there is no figure in the wood for the black to highlight.

The only 'enhancement' available would be to use a black pore-filler (Timbermate) to fill the pores black.

If you're using any colors associated with Brown (like yellow, orange, red, brown) then you just go ahead.

But with anything 'other', like Blue or Green or anything that isn't in brown's boathouse...

Have you looked up 'Mahogany Guitar' in a search engine to see what's out there?

Well the black/sandback seems to work for my purposes so long as the color on top "agrees" with the wood tone. It sinks into the pores and brings contrast just as I would expect - As you can see in one of my pics, the sanded-back black looks a lot like woodfiller (I haven't applied any woodfiller to these stain samples - I guess I should get some in order to best replicate my end result). I do need to do a better job sanding (with grain raising), maybe then I'll get a clean look with it.  I've heard of the bleach trick but I haven't seen it used anywhere online, and once sanded the khaya isn't all that brown ( i mean it is brown but not so much that I can't work with it). And I'm all in on doing a blue-ish stain. I've seen several online, blue seems to be a favorite. Red/brown/yellow is .... too natural looking, kindof old school IMO (these colors bring classic les pauls to mind), and I'm not interested in it right now. I want to pay homage to the original finish with a nice blue. 

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